[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by MidtownMike

Hey bro, no reason to get personal. Chillax!
Of course I know that the tires are available in the US. You're just proving my point. If the car is a 440i it's well capable of speeds over 250kmh, so BMW is being scroogy for fitting OEM tires with a lower speed index.
Doesn't make sense to make a car with an engine, drive train and suspension built for speed, and then install inferior tires so that those become the bottleneck and you have to limit the top speed just because of cheap ass tires. That's almost as retarded as miles and gallons and Fahrenheit.

What it boils down to is Americans are lazy and can’t be bothered with seasonal tire swaps. They want one all season tire and since there’s nowhere they can drive over 100 mph they’re perfectly happy with a 130 mph limiter. Most of them don’t even know there’s a limiter. With so many xDrive buyers these days a square, all season tire setup is pretty ubiquitous in the U.S. Gone are the days when buying a sport pkg model would virtually guarantee a Bimmer with a staggered, summer, performance tire setup. Even in the so called snow belt folks just want xDrive, in spite of the fact that it neuters the suspension, and all season tires so they don’t have to swap to dedicated winter wheels and tires.

[MidtownMike]

Damn, I never realized that OEM all season tires are limited at 210 km/h (130mph). BMW definitely cheaped out there on the OEM homologation. There are many manufacturers that produce all season tires with a V or Y index.

My OEM Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric summer tires are rated at 300 km/h (186mph) and my OEM Continental Wintercontact tires are rated at 240 km/h (149mph). I expected somehow that all season tires are rated somewhere in the middle and not below both. Of course it makes sense after giving it some thought, as the summer and winter tires are fully optimized for sporty performance under certain specific circumstances and the all seasons only provide mediocre grip and performance under all circumstances.
In Germany, if you have a car capable of going 250kmh with tires mounted that have a lower rating, the dealership will just slam a removable sticker on the dashboard to indicate the max speed. We don't restrict the top speed of the car, but to each their own.

[LA430]

Also to be fair here, several states have criminal speeding laws that can land you in jail. Many of them aren’t even that far over the speed limit.

In Illinois for example. 26 over the speed limit is a class B misdemeanor and 35 over is a class A. With a maximum speed limit anywhere in the state of 70mph then 96 is a class B and 105 in a class A.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...laws-flipbook/

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by LA430

Also to be fair here, several states have criminal speeding laws that can land you in jail. Many of them aren’t even that far over the speed limit.

In Illinois for example. 26 over the speed limit is a class B misdemeanor and 35 over is a class A. With a maximum speed limit anywhere in the state of 70mph then 96 is a class B and 105 in a class A.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...laws-flipbook/

Oops, on the I-94 tollway from Chicago to Milwaukee I routinely exceed 105 multiple times, by just a tad and just for short stretches to pass someone. I love that road!! It is four lanes in each direction and it is not heavily traveled at all. I honestly don’t know why it is so wide. I assume some politician in Illinois got a pretty big payoff to approve the unneeded size of that freeway. Whatever the reason it makes for some fun driving for ME!!!

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by MidtownMike

Damn, I never realized that OEM all season tires are limited at 210 km/h (130mph). BMW definitely cheaped out there on the OEM homologation. There are many manufacturers that produce all season tires with a V or Y index.

My OEM Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric summer tires are rated at 300 km/h (186mph) and my OEM Continental Wintercontact tires are rated at 240 km/h (149mph). I expected somehow that all season tires are rated somewhere in the middle and not below both. Of course it makes sense after giving it some thought, as the summer and winter tires are fully optimized for sporty performance under certain specific circumstances and the all seasons only provide mediocre grip and performance under all circumstances.
In Germany, if you have a car capable of going 250kmh with tires mounted that have a lower rating, the dealership will just slam a removable sticker on the dashboard to indicate the max speed. We don't restrict the top speed of the car, but to each their own.

Your English is very good and your user name makes me think of NYC. Have you been to the United States? I’ve been watching YouTube videos recently posted by Europeans who are amazed at the size of the United States. I think frequently Europeans don’t really grasp the differences in geography and weather that exist across the U.S. One frequent topic of conversation is how Europeans tend to look down on Americans a little because of their lack of international travel. And then the response frequently is one main reason is Americans have so much variety within the United States and with the size of the U.S. they don’t have to leave the country.

Before I moved to Chicago I used to stay in a really nice hostel in downtown and, of course, it was frequented by young, international travelers visiting the United States. I remember one conversation one day with some folks who were talking about their travel plans to the west coast and California and they had given themselves a day to drive there. They kind of had the idea they were just going to add that trip and they would just “pop over” to California and then come back to Chicago. They were shocked when we pointed out it would be a 2,000 mile trip one way and was at least a two or three day drive.

[LA430]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Oops, on the I-94 tollway from Chicago to Milwaukee I routinely exceed 105 multiple times, by just a tad and just for short stretches to pass someone. I love that road!! It is four lanes in each direction and it is not heavily traveled at all. I honestly don’t know why it is so wide. I assume some politician in Illinois got a pretty big payoff to approve the unneeded size of that freeway. Whatever the reason it makes for some fun driving for ME!!!

Totally get it. I got popped for doing over 81 in a 55 right at the 355 and 88 interchange out by Downers Grove. I still don’t understand why the speed limit is 55 there.

[328dabi]

The oe tires that came on my us spec ‘14 328d had a Y rating (186mph).

[MidtownMike]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Your English is very good and your user name makes me think of NYC. Have you been to the United States? I’ve been watching YouTube videos recently posted by Europeans who are amazed at the size of the United States. I think frequently Europeans don’t really grasp the differences in geography and weather that exist across the U.S. One frequent topic of conversation is how Europeans tend to look down on Americans a little because of their lack of international travel. And then the response frequently is one main reason is Americans have so much variety within the United States and with the size of the U.S. they don’t have to leave the country.

Before I moved to Chicago I used to stay in a really nice hostel in downtown and, of course, it was frequented by young, international travelers visiting the United States. I remember one conversation one day with some folks who were talking about their travel plans to the west coast and California and they had given themselves a day to drive there. They kind of had the idea they were just going to add that trip and they would just “pop over” to California and then come back to Chicago. They were shocked when we pointed out it would be a 2,000 mile trip one way and was at least a two or three day drive.

I have been to the states twice, and seen places like Florida, Georgia, Wyoming, Utah, Nevada, California. Hoping to see New Jersey, New York and Kansas soon if my travel request gets approved by management. So far, it has been a great experience and very impressive, with very friendly people (except for that one cab driver in the early 1990s). I do understand how all seasons make sense there, with certain mountain and desert areas getting very cold at night, even in the summer, and very hot during the day, and weather differences across regions.
I just don't get why BMW would choose OEM all season tires with a low speed rating for a car that comes with a B58, and limit the car accordingly. What if you buy proper tires for the car and want to take it out on a track day? If you remove the speed limit with a tune like Bootmod 3 , then any warranty or goodwill you may have will be void, plus it's unnecessary hassle. Maybe if you show the dealership that you have proper Michelins now, they are able to increase your top speed to 155 mph (the normal factory limit).

[328dabi]

Originally Posted by MidtownMike

Maybe if you show the dealership that you have proper Michelins now, they are able to increase your top speed to 155 mph (the normal factory limit).

Typically folks who will track a new car won’t be doing so with a luxury line. They usually opt for an m sport with raised speed limiter and y rated tires. More to the point, the tires that come standard on the car would be swapped most of the time anyway if you plan to to use the car on track. I had r compound tires on my previous street/track car. It didn’t come that way from the factory. Short of niche vehicles, I find majority of cars don’t come equipped with tires suitable for track use. There are far better options out there for track, but those same tires are not tires you would typically want to run in the street.

But even when you track a car, the average speed on most tracks is far below the limiter. And even the top speed you will hit on a lot of tracks isn’t going to be very high. In example, lime rock (a fav of mine) has an overall average speed of around 80. Iirc the highest speed hit there on the straight is around 125-130. This is considered a moderately fast track…..

At the end of the day none of this matters in regard to these cars as they are far from new. Warranty’s in example are expired on the majority of F platforms out there.

[MidtownMike]

Originally Posted by 328dabi

Typically folks who will track a new car won’t be doing so with a luxury line. They usually opt for an m sport with raised speed limiter and y rated tires. More to the point, the tires that come standard on the car would be swapped most of the time anyway if you plan to to use the car on track. I had r compound tires on my previous street/track car. It didn’t come that way from the factory. Short of niche vehicles, I find majority of cars don’t come equipped with tires suitable for track use. There are far better options out there for track, but those same tires are not tires you would typically want to run in the street.

But even when you track a car, the average speed on most tracks is far below the limiter. And even the top speed you will hit on a lot of tracks isn’t going to be very high. In example, lime rock (a fav of mine) has an overall average speed of around 80. Iirc the highest speed hit there on the straight is around 125-130. This is considered a moderately fast track…..

At the end of the day none of this matters in regard to these cars as they are far from new. Warranty’s in example are expired on the majority of F platforms out there.

I agree with the theory and the fact that most people would not use it, but I just wouldn't be able to stand the fact that BMW permanently limits my very capable car at a measley 210km/h just because of the stupid tires. A consumable part that is meant to be user replaceable and where tires with a higher speed index are widely available. I decide how fast I drive, and not some lame ass car dealer.

Regarding warranty: Not sure about the US, but in Europe a CPO (Premium Selection we call it here) can be up to 7 years old. You get two years of warranty (meaning any official bmw workshop across Europe and some additional countries needs to fix your problem, and BMW provides alternative transportation and pays for hotel costs etc if you get stuck).
The F3x 4 series was built until 2020. That means that - in theory - until 2029 there will be F36 and F32 under warranty.

[328dabi]

Originally Posted by MidtownMike

I don't know about the US, but in Europe a CPO (Premium Selection we call it here) can be up to 7 years old. You get two years of warranty on it. The 4 series was built until 2020. That means that - in theory - until 2029 there will be F36 and F32 under warranty.

Same here. We have Cpo. But f3x platform cars were first sold over a decade ago. Majority are long past their warranty.

And again, majority of folks who buy these cars with the intent to track are not buying cars with h rated rubber and 130mph limiters. The reality is that such a small percentage ever see track use. And an equally small percentage ever even hit triple digit speeds for the majority of their use/lifespan.

Personally, any car I’ve ever built/modifed for track use, I didn’t care about the warranty. And the first item I swapped were the tires. But that’s an entirely different discussion.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by 328dabi

The oe tires that came on my us spec ‘14 328d had a Y rating (186mph).

I see you have the M Sport, so your car came with staggered, summer, performance tires in order to come from the factory with those tires.

[MidtownMike]

Originally Posted by 328dabi

Same here. We have Cpo. But f3x platform cars were first sold over a decade ago. Majority are long past their warranty.

And again, majority of folks who buy these cars with the intent to track are not buying cars with h rated rubber and 130mph limiters. The reality is that such a small percentage ever see track use. And an equally small percentage ever even hit triple digit speeds for the majority of their use/lifespan.

Personally, any car I’ve ever built/modifed for track use, I didn’t care about the warranty. And the first item I swapped were the tires. But that’s an entirely different discussion.

What I meant is that even if I want to break the speed limit on a public road, that's my choice. If the car is capable, I don't need my car manufacturer to nanny me. I am surprised that America pretends to be all about freedom, but that you guys accept this limitation of your freedom. You can also buy and carry guns, but if you murder someone you get to deal with the law. BMW should just install minimum 155mph/250kmh tires on a 440i. If I break the speed limit that's between me and the law. BMW needs to stay out of it.

[328dabi]

Originally Posted by MidtownMike

What I meant is that even if I want to break the speed limit on a public road, that's my choice. If the car is capable, I don't need my car manufacturer to nanny me. I am surprised that America pretends to be all about freedom, but that you guys accept this limitation of your freedom. You can also buy and carry guns, but if you murder someone you get to deal with the law. BMW should just install minimum 155mph/250kmh tires on a 440i. If I break the speed limit that's between me and the law. BMW needs to stay out of it.

This has been going on for a long time. The us spec E36 M3 was electronically limited to 137MPH despite being equipped with tires capable of 150+MPH (ZR rating). Where or how they came up with the 137mph number is beyond me. The 90’s M5 on the other hand was limited electronically to 155MPH. Whereas a 325/328 was limited to 128mph.

This is a piece from a 1992 car and driver road test article in regard to the speed limiters.

“And it tops out at only 128 mph. The identical car sold in Europe goes 143 mph, but BMW programs the computers of cars bound for America to limit top speed. BMW says only that it's "worried that U.S. buyers might fit replacement tires with an insufficient speed rating." Sounds flimsy to us. We think BMW of North America is feeling the cold wind of liability litigation blowing. Understandable, perhaps, in today's litigious climate.”

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by MidtownMike

What I meant is that even if I want to break the speed limit on a public road, that's my choice. If the car is capable, I don't need my car manufacturer to nanny me. I am surprised that America pretends to be all about freedom, but that you guys accept this limitation of your freedom. You can also buy and carry guns, but if you murder someone you get to deal with the law. BMW should just install minimum 155mph/250kmh tires on a 440i. If I break the speed limit that's between me and the law. BMW needs to stay out of it.

Would the Netherlands like to pay for an Autobahn quality highway system in the United States? We have 78,700 kilometers of interstate highway system. The Autobahn system has 13,200 kilometers. The U.S. is 4,500 kilometers from coast to coast and 2,650 kilometers from north to south. Western Europe is about 2,150 kilometers east to west and about 3,350 kilometers north to south. The U.S. has 345 million people in over 10 million square kilometers. Western Europe has 200 million people in just over 1 million square kilometers. Notice I even put all that in kilometers for you. Just let us know when you are ready to send the check.

[MidtownMike]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Would the Netherlands like to pay for an Autobahn quality highway system in the United States? We have 78,700 kilometers of interstate highway system. The Autobahn system has 13,200 kilometers. The U.S. is 4,500 kilometers from coast to coast and 2,650 kilometers from north to south. Western Europe is about 2,150 kilometers east to west and about 3,350 kilometers north to south. The U.S. has 345 million people in over 10 million square kilometers. Western Europe has 200 million people in just over 1 million square kilometers. Notice I even put all that in kilometers for you. Just let us know when you are ready to send the check.

Thanks for the numbers. What exactly is your point and how is The Netherlands paying for US highways connected to BMW neutering their cars in the US?

[MidtownMike]

Originally Posted by 328dabi

This has been going on for a long time. The us spec E36 M3 was electronically limited to 137MPH despite being equipped with tires capable of 150+MPH (ZR rating). Where or how they came up with the 137mph number is beyond me. The 90’s M5 on the other hand was limited electronically to 155MPH. Whereas a 325/328 was limited to 128mph.

This is a piece from a 1992 car and driver road test article in regard to the speed limiters.

“And it tops out at only 128 mph. The identical car sold in Europe goes 143 mph, but BMW programs the computers of cars bound for America to limit top speed. BMW says only that it's "worried that U.S. buyers might fit replacement tires with an insufficient speed rating." Sounds flimsy to us. We think BMW of North America is feeling the cold wind of liability litigation blowing. Understandable, perhaps, in today's litigious climate.”

That sucks man. Time for the US Bimmer bros to start a class action suit against BMW for the fundamental human right to fkn SEND IT!!!

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by MidtownMike

Thanks for the numbers. What exactly is your point and how is The Netherlands paying for US highways connected to BMW neutering their cars in the US?

You said you were surprised we pretended to be all about freedom, yet accepted this limitation. Whether we like it or not we are limited in what we can do by financial constraints.

I’m not saying you’re doing this, but I think lots of Europeans (and other countries and even a lot of Americans) tend to think things that work and can be done in much smaller countries should work and be done in the United States and don’t grasp the size of our country makes a lot of those things not feasible here. Another factor that frequently comes into play is the United States has the most diverse population of any country in the world and has to deal with a lot of competing interests.

[MidtownMike]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

You said you were surprised we pretended to be all about freedom, yet accepted this limitation. Whether we like it or not we are limited in what we can do by financial constraints.

I’m not saying you’re doing this, but I think lots of Europeans (and other countries and even a lot of Americans) tend to think things that work and can be done in much smaller countries should work and be done in the United States and don’t grasp the size of our country makes a lot of those things not feasible here. Another factor that frequently comes into play is the United States has the most diverse population of any country in the world and has to deal with a lot of competing interests.

Do you think that all highways in Europe are suited for driving 155mph/250km/h? Except for Germany, all other countries have speed limits on the highways. Hell, even in Germany it's just certain parts of certain roads where there is no speed limit. We also have crappy roads in Europe that will f**k up your suspension. My point is that many US cars (such as Hellcats) don't have speed limiters, so all those factors you mentioned clearly don't account for the limitations. That means that BMW is needlessly yet willfully neutering their cars and denying their customers the basic human right to SEND IT!!! Rise up, people!!! This is the dawn of a revolution!!

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by MidtownMike

Do you think that all highways in Europe are suited for driving 155mph/250km/h? Except for Germany, all other countries have speed limits on the highways. Hell, even in Germany it's just certain parts of certain roads where there is no speed limit. We also have crappy roads in Europe. My point is that many US cars (such as Hellcats) don't have speed limiters, so all those factors you mentioned clearly don't account for the limitations. That means that BMW is needlessly neutering their cars and denying their customers the right to SEND IT!!! Rise up, people!!! This is the dawn of a revolution!!

Of course I don’t think all highways in Europe are Autobahns and I’m well aware an ever shrinking portion of the Autobahn has no speed limit. I was just comparing our Interstate Highway system to the Autobahn system. We have many “B road” highways. The entire U.S. highway system is about 260,000 kilometers.

Cars like the Hellcat are few and far between in the United States. I’m going to guess all manufacturers combined (with the exception of European manufacturers) that sell cars in the United States have fewer cars that are capable of just what BMW’s overall line of cars sold here are capable of. And, in all honesty, the Hellcat may have a motor capable of propelling it to well over 155 mph, but I would not want to be in it going that fast. I seriously doubt it’s anywhere near as safe as a German car at that speed. Even a lowly Volkswagen. BMW may be neutering their cars, but they are equal opportunity neuterers, because they have speed limiters on all of their cars and, with a handful of exceptions, the maximum limit is set at 155 mph.

You should see the look of shock on my very American friends’ faces when I tell them my car can go 155 mph! They are in disbelief! That an everyday car you can buy off of a dealership lot could go 155 mph is something that has never entered their minds.

[MidtownMike]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Of course I don’t think all highways in Europe are Autobahns and I’m well aware an ever shrinking portion of the Autobahn has no speed limit. I was just comparing our Interstate Highway system to the Autobahn system. We have many “B road” highways. The entire U.S. highway system is about 260,000 kilometers.

Cars like the Hellcat are few and far between in the United States. I’m going to guess all manufacturers combined (with the exception of European manufacturers) that sell cars in the United States have fewer cars that are capable of just what BMW’s overall line of cars sold here are capable of. And, in all honesty, the Hellcat may have a motor capable of propelling it to well over 155 mph, but I would not want to be in it going that fast. I seriously doubt it’s anywhere near as safe as a German car at that speed. Even a lowly Volkswagen. BMW may be neutering their cars, but they are equal opportunity neuterers, because they have speed limiters on all of their cars and, with a handful of exceptions, the maximum limit is set at 155 mph.

You should see the look of shock on my very American friends’ faces when I tell them my car can go 155 mph! They are in disbelief! That an everyday car you can buy off of a dealership lot could go 155 mph is something that has never entered their minds.

Yeah 155mph is what BMW's are limited at on a global level so that's acceptable. OP's ride individually and permanently being neutered at 130 is just fd up. That's the same as shooting Usain Bolt in both knee caps and permanently disabling him, just because today he isn't wearing his sprint shoes, but normal sneakers.

[Smooth_Operator]

Yeah just to steer this back on topic... MHD can definitely remove the limiter as well as BM3. My 335i was limited to a GPS indicated 132/133 from the factory, and post flashing pulled past 132 to at least 142 (obviously these are activities for closed courses), after switching tires from the Pirelli Cinturato runflats that were on the car when I got it to some Michelin Pilot Super Sports that are actually rated to go beyond 130.

Yeah for real though American road quality varies GREATLY. Some highways are silky smooth and others are close cousins to gravel, really not the places to exploit the full mechanical capabilities of these cars.