[Filip3615]

Hi, I have a 435i with FBO's including Quaiffe LSD.
I'm interested in upgrading to stronger turbo's and wonder exactly what modifications need to be done except for the turbo's, possibly HPFP and a new map.

Also, what turbo's do you recommend? I want to be able to reach somewhere around 500-550Whp.


If there are likewise forums, please link those as I did not find one for this type of question.

Thanks in advance!

[n55david]

Originally Posted by Filip3615

Hi, I have a 435i with FBO's including Quaiffe LSD.
I'm interested in upgrading to stronger turbo's and wonder exactly what modifications need to be done except for the turbo's, possibly HPFP and a new map.

Also, what turbo's do you recommend? I want to be able to reach somewhere around 500-550Whp.


If there are likewise forums, please link those as I did not find one for this type of question.

Thanks in advance!

turbo: pure stage 2 with the upgraded inlet pipe.

hpfp: dorch or spool

map: custom from your preferred tuner on your platform of choice

fuel: an ethanol blend of some sort (e30 to e50)

assuming you're actually fbo like you say that's all the additional stuff you will need.

[10secf82]

Nice! I have the same goal with my 335i. Quaife is going in tomorrow.

[Filip3615]

Originally Posted by Phantom10R

turbo: pure stage 2 with the upgraded inlet pipe.

hpfp: dorch or spool

map: custom from your preferred tuner on your platform of choice

fuel: an ethanol blend of some sort (e30 to e50)

assuming you're actually fbo like you say that's all the additional stuff you will need.

So all that is essential is the Turbo and the HPFP as I figured..?

I imagine this is pushing the engine more than just FBO and so on. Are there any known issues/ risks when going for an upgraded turbo and therefore reaching the alot more power than an original engine?

Of course I know even a tune puts more "stress on the engine" and therefore meaning it could break or so. But has there been a lot of/ any known cases of engine's breaking with these upgrades?

[Filip3615]

Originally Posted by 10secf30

Nice! I have the same goal with my 335i. Quaife is going in tomorrow.

Nice! It really makes a difference in the driving and cornering! And makes you feel a lot more safe as you learn that it reacts a lot better even if it loses grip (which is less often).

What modications do you have so far?

I would actually want my car to be xDrive, especially for this upgrade... But I guess i'll have to work with what I have.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Check out the best value combo deal we offer + Stage 2 turbo (Pure or Vargas) and you are all set

[n55david]

Originally Posted by Filip3615

So all that is essential is the Turbo and the HPFP as I figured..?

I imagine this is pushing the engine more than just FBO and so on. Are there any known issues/ risks when going for an upgraded turbo and therefore reaching the alot more power than an original engine?

Of course I know even a tune puts more "stress on the engine" and therefore meaning it could break or so. But has there been a lot of/ any known cases of engine's breaking with these upgrades?

you answered your own question there...

it's still sort of rare to see.any major issues even at that power level but it can happen.

[chinniciF32]

Originally Posted by Filip3615

Hi, I have a 435i with FBO's including Quaiffe LSD.
I'm interested in upgrading to stronger turbo's and wonder exactly what modifications need to be done except for the turbo's, possibly HPFP and a new map.

Also, what turbo's do you recommend? I want to be able to reach somewhere around 500-550Whp.


If there are likewise forums, please link those as I did not find one for this type of question.

Thanks in advance!

Are you auto or manual? I know the zf8 auto starts slipping right around those power numbers....

[Filip3615]

Originally Posted by chinniciF32

Are you auto or manual? I know the zf8 auto starts slipping right around those power numbers....

Im 8at with xhp, not that it would help alot against slip from too big hp/ torque..

[Filip3615]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Check out the best value combo deal we offer + Stage 2 turbo (Pure or Vargas) and you are all set

I would order through you, as I know you have good deals. Although I live in Sweden and your shipping would be "quite the deal" I imagine, if even possible..?

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by Filip3615

I would order through you, as I know you have good deals. Although I live in Sweden and your shipping would be "quite the deal" I imagine, if even possible..?

Our shipping rates are as aggressive as it gets, you can also dm me your address and I will try and get you an even better price if possible.

[harkes]

Originally Posted by Filip3615

Im 8at with xhp, not that it would help alot against slip from too big hp/ torque..

XHP does actually help against slip as there is an option to increase clutch holding pressure.

Ethanol is #1 on your list. Without that you cannot reach your goal.

[Filip3615]

Originally Posted by harkes

XHP does actually help against slip as there is an option to increase clutch holding pressure.

Ethanol is #1 on your list. Without that you cannot reach your goal.

I'm already running 30% ethanol on a custom map from Wedge Performance.

I meant will Xhp still help when you increase the power numbers to those levels mentioned above? +500 Whp? The clutch has to have some limit of what it can handle, even if you could potentially increase it through for example "clutch holding pressure" as you mention..?
Or am I wrong?

[Filip3615]

Just posting another follow up question.

Say I go for *Pure stage 1* + a HPFP and then get a E50 map or something like this..
What power numbers am I looking at here? Can I go for higher Ethanol numbers, and if so, would it make a difference in power?


I know this is Not worth, especially if you're EWG and especially now that I'm already on a E30 tune, but I'm kinda interested.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by Filip3615

Hi, I have a 435i with FBO's including Quaiffe LSD.
I'm interested in upgrading to stronger turbo's and wonder exactly what modifications need to be done except for the turbo's, possibly HPFP and a new map.

Also, what turbo's do you recommend? I want to be able to reach somewhere around 500-550Whp.


If there are likewise forums, please link those as I did not find one for this type of question.

Thanks in advance!

If you are hoping to achieve 550bhp on an N55 EWG, then there are other components to upgrade too. Assuming that you are upgrading the turbo and already have an adequate free flow catted or catless downpipe and an aluminum charge pipe, below is what I'd consider in no particular order. I've been assembling these parts so I included links.

You are getting lots of opinions on turbo upgrades. I would make sure to include Pure Turbos in your list to consider.

1) TMAP 3.5 bar upgrade.
VDO version is $65 at FCP Euro

Also make sure that you have a free flow air filter such as drop-ins from aFe or K&N. About $85

2) Turbosmart BOV
Louder Dual Port version or quieter Plumb Back model, your choice.

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...8;_ss=r?aff=22

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...8;_ss=r?aff=22

3) Upgraded Turbo Inlet Pipe
Get the MST v2/hybrid version. There is a thread where they were tested a MST was the winner.

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...8;_ss=r?aff=22

4) Upgraded Turbo to Intercooler Pipe (TIC)
With age the stock plastic TIC pipe can become thin and flexible. Add higher boost pressures and it tends to balloon like a rubber brake hose.
Evolution Racewerks and FTP make the highest quality. Make sure to replace old o-rings. O-rings on intercooler connections are directional and will leak if installed backwards.

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...8;_ss=r?aff=22

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...8;_ss=r?aff=22

5) Upgraded Intercooler
Whatever FMIC you have installed is unlikely to be adequate if you achieve 550bhp. I recommend the Wagner Competition EVO2. Replace the o-rings as stated above.

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...8;_ss=r?aff=22

6) HPFP
I recommend the Dorch Stage2

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...8;_ss=r?aff=22

7) LPFP
The stock LPFP maxes out at roughly 460hp. There are different levels. For your goals, I recommend at least the Precision Raceworks Stage 2.5 model.

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...2811605?aff=22

8) Ethanol sensor with Canbus interface.
I recommend the Zeitronix along with the Precision Racewerks fuel line upgrade.

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...8;_ss=r?aff=22

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...8;_ss=r?aff=22

9) Engine tune that can handle E85, either a custom tune or the BootMod3 Stage2 Flex Fuel tune.

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...8;_ss=r?aff=22

Of course, if you beef a car up with this much power, make sure to upgrade brakes, suspension and tires. Haha, I have plenty of opinions on those as well. Good luck!

Hope this helps!

[thejeremyman9]

Agree with about but i would do LPFP last only on an as-needed basis. Plenty of people push to 500whp with stock LPFP, it really just depends on your ethanol content and how your tune is built (boost vs timing for example). If you upgraded LPFP you will likely also need upgraded EKP.

Also i would go with a race IC for this power level.

Finally, you seem fixated on numbers. Why is that? Ignore the numbers and focus on overall drivability, reliability, power delivery, area under the curve, etc. A PS1 is indeed very cost-ineffective for EWG and will basically just allow you to hold boost a little better to redline. Power delivery down low and up to around 4500 rpm will be basically unchanged from a custom tune maxing out stock turbo you will just hold the torque curve flatter to redline and make a little more peak HP.

The easiest/simplest build to do is IC+CP+TIC+MSTv2 inlet+PS2+DV+HPFP+XHP and run BM3 2+ E30 map running ~E45 fuel (50/50 mix). That will get you almost to 500whp/wtq. When you want to push further you get diminishing returns just like once you go past FBO stock turbo.

[Filip3615]

Originally Posted by johnung

If you are hoping to achieve 550bhp on an N55 EWG, then there are other components to upgrade too. Assuming that you are upgrading the turbo and already have an adequate free flow catted or catless downpipe and an aluminum charge pipe, below is what I'd consider in no particular order. I've been assembling these parts so I included links.

You are getting lots of opinions on turbo upgrades. I would make sure to include Pure Turbos in your list to consider.

1) TMAP 3.5 bar upgrade.
VDO version is $65 at FCP Euro

Also make sure that you have a free flow air filter such as drop-ins from aFe or K&N. About $85

2) Turbosmart BOV
Louder Dual Port version or quieter Plumb Back model, your choice.

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...8;_ss=r?aff=22

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...8;_ss=r?aff=22

3) Upgraded Turbo Inlet Pipe
Get the MST v2/hybrid version. There is a thread where they were tested a MST was the winner.

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...8;_ss=r?aff=22

4) Upgraded Turbo to Intercooler Pipe (TIC)
With age the stock plastic TIC pipe can become thin and flexible. Add higher boost pressures and it tends to balloon like a rubber brake hose.
Evolution Racewerks and FTP make the highest quality. Make sure to replace old o-rings. O-rings on intercooler connections are directional and will leak if installed backwards.

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...8;_ss=r?aff=22

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...8;_ss=r?aff=22

5) Upgraded Intercooler
Whatever FMIC you have installed is unlikely to be adequate if you achieve 550bhp. I recommend the Wagner Competition EVO2. Replace the o-rings as stated above.

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...8;_ss=r?aff=22

6) HPFP
I recommend the Dorch Stage2

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...8;_ss=r?aff=22

7) LPFP
The stock LPFP maxes out at roughly 460hp. There are different levels. For your goals, I recommend at least the Precision Raceworks Stage 2.5 model.

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...2811605?aff=22

8) Ethanol sensor with Canbus interface.
I recommend the Zeitronix along with the Precision Racewerks fuel line upgrade.

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...8;_ss=r?aff=22

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...8;_ss=r?aff=22

9) Engine tune that can handle E85, either a custom tune or the BootMod3 Stage2 Flex Fuel tune.

https://www.kiesmotorsports.com/prod...8;_ss=r?aff=22

Of course, if you beef a car up with this much power, make sure to upgrade brakes, suspension and tires. Haha, I have plenty of opinions on those as well. Good luck!

Hope this helps!

Thanks for the very elaborate guide through all the parts necessary!
I've tried reading multiple threads and often Its said "get FBO's, new turbo and new Hpfp".
I'm thankful that you explained just what needs changing, in terms of reliability and making sure all components are able to handle the upgraded power.
Just contemplating whether an M4 is more worth at the moment.
Sure it might be a bit more expensive than those components, but they all need to be changed which includes a Labour cost. And also an m4 gets me better brakes, suspension, etc..? Possibly worse exhaust sound.

I'll have to do some thinking, from a wallet perspective as well. Sweden is approx. 50% more expensive than the US so that's also something to take into consideration..

Anyhow, this wont be done till summer is over, so..

[Filip3615]

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

Agree with about but i would do LPFP last only on an as-needed basis. Plenty of people push to 500whp with stock LPFP, it really just depends on your ethanol content and how your tune is built (boost vs timing for example). If you upgraded LPFP you will likely also need upgraded EKP.

Also i would go with a race IC for this power level.

Finally, you seem fixated on numbers. Why is that? Ignore the numbers and focus on overall drivability, reliability, power delivery, area under the curve, etc. A PS1 is indeed very cost-ineffective for EWG and will basically just allow you to hold boost a little better to redline. Power delivery down low and up to around 4500 rpm will be basically unchanged from a custom tune maxing out stock turbo you will just hold the torque curve flatter to redline and make a little more peak HP.

The easiest/simplest build to do is IC+CP+TIC+MSTv2 inlet+PS2+DV+HPFP+XHP and run BM3 2+ E30 map running ~E45 fuel (50/50 mix). That will get you almost to 500whp/wtq. When you want to push further you get diminishing returns just like once you go past FBO stock turbo.

Hey, I noticed I might be fixated om numbers as you mention. This is because I believe it's easier for you to take into consideration what needs to be replaced/ upgraded when you know where I wanna go.

Say I say "I want a faster car" leaves a big area to think about.

As i mentioned to the previous guy, at this cost an m4 could be taken into consideration? It also has the perks of upgraded brakes, suspension, more stable chassis, etc..
Living in Sweden makes all of this cost alot more than the US which also makes it more cost - ineffective when I could possibly get a better car (OEM) for those money.
It could also allow a new tune and some other components to get me into that power range, for example.

[thejeremyman9]

Originally Posted by Filip3615

Hey, I noticed I might be fixated om numbers as you mention. This is because I believe it's easier for you to take into consideration what needs to be replaced/ upgraded when you know where I wanna go.

Say I say "I want a faster car" leaves a big area to think about.

As i mentioned to the previous guy, at this cost an m4 could be taken into consideration? It also has the perks of upgraded brakes, suspension, more stable chassis, etc..
Living in Sweden makes all of this cost alot more than the US which also makes it more cost - ineffective when I could possibly get a better car (OEM) for those money.
It could also allow a new tune and some other components to get me into that power range, for example.

I bring the numbers question up because in the era of youtube and "the internets", more and more people are fixated on achieving XXX hp goals when other things (that i mentioned above) are far more important, especially when you are just focused on peak HP numbers. I understand the perspective of the number representing a goal.

So in other words, ask yourself, why do you want 500+whp? It is because you strongly desire a faster car and FBO isnt enough for you to enjoy? Do you want to be able to beat someone in a race? Do you want to be able to say you have a car that makes over 500 whp?

Then ask yourself if its worth the trade offs when you upgrade turbo - the "lag" / later spool and difference in drivability, potential impacts to reliability, etc. Then if you are willing to live with all of that, ask yourself if its worth the cost.

I pondered turbo upgrade many times (and still do occasionally) but especially now that i drive the car less frequently, FBO and OTS maps are enough for me right now. I like having basically instant throttle response and torque at low RPM even if it means my boost may fall in the upper RPM and i dont make big peak HP numbers. It's more fun and useable during "normal" driving.

[Filip3615]

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

I bring the numbers question up because in the era of youtube and "the internets", more and more people are fixated on achieving XXX hp goals when other things (that i mentioned above) are far more important, especially when you are just focused on peak HP numbers. I understand the perspective of the number representing a goal.

So in other words, ask yourself, why do you want 500+whp? It is because you strongly desire a faster car and FBO isnt enough for you to enjoy? Do you want to be able to beat someone in a race? Do you want to be able to say you have a car that makes over 500 whp?

Then ask yourself if its worth the trade offs when you upgrade turbo - the "lag" / later spool and difference in drivability, potential impacts to reliability, etc. Then if you are willing to live with all of that, ask yourself if its worth the cost.

I pondered turbo upgrade many times (and still do occasionally) but especially now that i drive the car less frequently, FBO and OTS maps are enough for me right now. I like having basically instant throttle response and torque at low RPM even if it means my boost may fall in the upper RPM and i dont make big peak HP numbers. It's more fun and useable during "normal" driving.

I understand your thinking. And even though it does not seem like it, I am very keen in having a reliable car, as it is a daily driver. Although I'm not sure what you mean by "youtube era and the internets", as I'm not sure that's where my thoughts originated from..

I'm asking the question because I'm interested in what people suggest needs to be changed/ modified in order to accomplish "my goal". And with that, what the cost of this would result in, to then compare it to the final result.
Which allows me to figure out, is it worth modifying this car further, or would I be better off going for a overall better OEM car, which could then be slightly modified, or even left stock and leave me with what I desired from the beginning.

Sometimes it could also be a phase where someone greatly desires something better/ faster/ stronger, just to be forgotten in 2 weeks time.
I can relate to your last sentences, but anyhow It could be good knowing what is required to achieve the desired output, now that I know, I can ponder of the choices I'm left with.

Maybe the Title of this question is misleading. However I'm trying to get the attention of people so that I can get correct aid in this topic, where You and johnung have been very helpful.

I have some thinking to do, thank you for the input!

[johnung]

Originally Posted by Filip3615

I understand your thinking. And even though it does not seem like it, I am very keen in having a reliable car, as it is a daily driver. Although I'm not sure what you mean by "youtube era and the internets", as I'm not sure that's where my thoughts originated from..

I'm asking the question because I'm interested in what people suggest needs to be changed/ modified in order to accomplish "my goal". And with that, what the cost of this would result in, to then compare it to the final result.
Which allows me to figure out, is it worth modifying this car further, or would I be better off going for a overall better OEM car, which could then be slightly modified, or even left stock and leave me with what I desired from the beginning.

Sometimes it could also be a phase where someone greatly desires something better/ faster/ stronger, just to be forgotten in 2 weeks time.
I can relate to your last sentences, but anyhow It could be good knowing what is required to achieve the desired output, now that I know, I can ponder of the choices I'm left with.

Maybe the Title of this question is misleading. However I'm trying to get the attention of people so that I can get correct aid in this topic, where You and johnung have been very helpful.

I have some thinking to do, thank you for the input!

I agree with everything that Jeremy said. My top priority is also street drivability. I'm not building a track car. I like low end torque and I absolutely hate turbo lag and make component decisions to avoid it.

I treated your 500-550bhp as a range and considered which other parts would be necessary to upgrade. You can't mod to a specific horsepower number. Engine modding isn't linear. It would graph like steps or plateaus, rather than a straight line.

The list that I gave you is actually the list that I've been researching for a while and have been acquiring. I don't intend to upgrade the turbo at this time, but I have future proofed my component decisions to allow for it.

My list is actually to turn my stock N55 EWG turbo car into a Flex Fuel machine capable of automatically running any fuel up to full E90. (E90 is a higher level than E85 pump fuel. It comes in big cans and is used for tracking. I'm hoping to dyno test with it. It's like $10/gallon so have no intention of using it daily. E85 near me is $2.999/gallon right now.)

The BootMod3 flex fuel tune will read the ethanol content through the Canbus Zeitronix sensor and optimize the performance of the tune for it in real time. I am very curious to install everything and dyno test at various tune levels.

If I was looking at my list and modified it for two scenarios: Keeping Stock Turbo vs Definitely Upgrading Turbo, not much would change.

Maybe with the stock turbo, the LPFP could be a Stage2 instead of a Stage2.5, but that would only save $75 so not worth the downgrade.

Maybe with the stock turbo, my current upgraded intercooler (Wagner Competition EVO1) may be fine to prevent heat soak at the higher Flex Fuel horsepower levels, or maybe not. My intention is actually to design a test where I attempt to cause Heat Soak (with a series of Wide Open Throttle runs without adequate cool down time in between) while measuring/recording Intake Air Temperature and Intake Pressure Drop. I want to test before upgrading to Flex Fuel and afterwards.

Assuming my current intercooler is inadequate to prevent heat soak, then I will install the larger Wagner Competition EVO2 (along with an upgraded TIC pipe) and perform the same Heat Soak test again.

I am doing this testing out of curiosity but also because it is vitally important to size an intercooler for the amount of horsepower and thus the amount of air that must be cooled. Just throwing on a large intercooler with way more cooling capacity than needed will likely increase turbo lag.

It's the same concept when you buy a new air conditioner for your home. The HVAC contractor sizes the new model for the square footage of your home. Installing too large of an AC is not a good thing.

Anyway, my list of components doesn't change much whether you are installing an upgraded turbo or not. Assuming that a new turbo will cost $4,000-$5,000 total for parts and labor, it is a choice that should be considered carefully versus maximizing the stock N55 EWG turbo with Flex Fuel which is what I am doing.

Hope this helps!

[Filip3615]

Originally Posted by johnung

I agree with everything that Jeremy said. My top priority is also street drivability. I'm not building a track car. I like low end torque and I absolutely hate turbo lag and make component decisions to avoid it.

I treated your 500-550bhp as a range and considered which other parts would be necessary to upgrade. You can't mod to a specific horsepower number. Engine modding isn't linear. It would graph like steps or plateaus, rather than a straight line.

The list that I gave you is actually the list that I've been researching for a while and have been acquiring. I don't intend to upgrade the turbo at this time, but I have future proofed my component decisions to allow for it.

My list is actually to turn my stock N55 EWG turbo car into a Flex Fuel machine capable of automatically running any fuel up to full E90. (E90 is a higher level than E85 pump fuel. It comes in big cans and is used for tracking. I'm hoping to dyno test with it. It's like $10/gallon so have no intention of using it daily. E85 near me is $2.999/gallon right now.)

The BootMod3 flex fuel tune will read the ethanol content through the Canbus Zeitronix sensor and optimize the performance of the tune for it in real time. I am very curious to install everything and dyno test at various tune levels.

If I was looking at my list and modified it for two scenarios: Keeping Stock Turbo vs Definitely Upgrading Turbo, not much would change.

Maybe with the stock turbo, the LPFP could be a Stage2 instead of a Stage2.5, but that would only save $75 so not worth the downgrade.

Maybe with the stock turbo, my current upgraded intercooler (Wagner Competition EVO1) may be fine to prevent heat soak at the higher Flex Fuel horsepower levels, or maybe not. My intention is actually to design a test where I attempt to cause Heat Soak (with a series of Wide Open Throttle runs without adequate cool down time in between) while measuring/recording Intake Air Temperature and Intake Pressure Drop. I want to test before upgrading to Flex Fuel and afterwards.

Assuming my current intercooler is inadequate to prevent heat soak, then I will install the larger Wagner Competition EVO2 (along with an upgraded TIC pipe) and perform the same Heat Soak test again.

I am doing this testing out of curiosity but also because it is vitally important to size an intercooler for the amount of horsepower and thus the amount of air that must be cooled. Just throwing on a large intercooler with way more cooling capacity than needed will likely increase turbo lag.

It's the same concept when you buy a new air conditioner for your home. The HVAC contractor sizes the new model for the square footage of your home. Installing too large of an AC is not a good thing.

Anyway, my list of components doesn't change much whether you are installing an upgraded turbo or not. Assuming that a new turbo will cost $4,000-$5,000 total for parts and labor, it is a choice that should be considered carefully versus maximizing the stock N55 EWG turbo with Flex Fuel which is what I am doing.

Hope this helps!

I'm not sure if I followed completely, but I think I understand what your point is.
Which is a bit where I'm leaning as well. I want to be able to consider the costs, pro's and cons with doing this and then get to a conclusion, is it worth the risks? Costs? Etc...

I have some thinking to do, as mentioned in the post above, but I am none the less very thankful for the input you have given, as well as Jeremy, which may allow me to look at this entire project from another perspective. From where I am able to reflect about all the things and so on...

Thank you!