[peetee]

Hi all,

I'm after a set of 400m's for my F31 35d. Do I go staggered ... so its the same wheel at each corner ?

What size tyres should I go for. Can someone dumb it down for me please? Will need the best studless Nordic Winter tyres for winter alpine passes and skiiing holidays



Thanks

[VidalBuffoon]

I considered staggered but the choice in star marked tyres was pretty poor. I bought a set of DRC DMF 18s after checking they fitted over the bigger brakes. The setup is 225/45R18 on all four corners.

You could buy 400M fronts and get the same.

I went with the Goodyear Vector4S Gen 3. Pretty impressed with car/tyres they climbed (from stopped) a 1 in 6 with 3 inches of lying snow this morning when I gave them a test this morning.

[Stainy]

I've got 225's all round for winter. They go on staggered 400M's without issue. They are within spec for the 8/8.5 rims. I wouldn't bother staggering the tyres - the extra width will do you no favours on Alpine passes

[doncarlyon]

I'd recommend 225 45 18 all round - Vredestein Wintrac Pro

[Alscoob]

I run a staggered winter set up in 19" never had a problem in the snow yet. Standard 225x40x19 front & 255x35x19 rear.

Appreciate as per your wheel choice your considering 18's. so 225x45x18


As above Vredestein Wintrac Pro or even the Extreme S, which I currently have.

[GEP77]

I ran 225/40 R18 all round when I had my 335d and that worked very well.
When I moved to my current 440i with MPPSK I initially used the same setup and it was very tail happy! As a result I moved to a staggered setup on 19s.

When I had the 335d I used Continental RFT winters which were fine. Nowadays I use Vredestein Wintrac Extremes (go-flat), these were not only a lot cheaper but also provided more grip more of the time. On the rare occasions I've taken the 440i on snow it's performed very well indeed.

[Pobsey]

I’ve ran winters on the f31 330d Sdrive, 18” 400m with staggered Nokian WRA4’s, then 19” staggered vredestein extreme s and now Nokian WRA4’s in oem sizes.

I found the Nokian a far the better winter tyre, on cold wet tarmac and in the snow. Found the vredestein to be very tail happy on typical Uk winter days and they didn’t last long either.

[Ennoch]

My 2c (for what they're worth given my lack of driving time in the F31)...

I was a tart and went for a matching 403M setup to my summer wheels. This means staggered and RFT.

Firstly, if I could ditch the RFT I would because it does harm the ride and super low traction grip levels because one of the prime features of winters is more supple sidewalls which is obviously a bit of an oxymoron in winter tyre terms. However, with no spare I can't risk being stranded so it's a position that's not up for negotiation.

Secondly, I would go 18" as it just gives you more sidewall and movement, again aiding point 1 of more supple sidewalls being a good thing. I do think this is partly where the cheaper winters fall down as most I've seen still seem to have quite stiff sidewalls compared to good branded ones.

Thirdly, I would go for a square setup rather than staggered. Even on grippy days I feel the car is front limited which isn't exactly helpful if you're trying to get the front end turned in on a greasy/slimy/icy road. Square would help reduce this albeit at the expense of high speed stability in corners (possibly).

Fourthly, turning the DSC to the Dynamic setting seemed to make quite a significant difference to how the car drove when I had it in the snow up north. Obviously steering feel is still woeful as it is at any other time too but where with full DSC on the car would feel nervous, set to Dynamic it felt far more planted, albeit it was obviously moving about a bit. I think that this is down to the DSC cutting power and applying brakes in a very nervous, overly nannying manner as it feels even the slightest slide or twitch, so that it just leaves the car feeling very jittery and not necessarily responding to your inputs as you would expect or like.

As for tyres, I've got Pirelli Sottozero's as I've found them excellent on my Impreza running c300bhp and which has had the living daylights thrashed out of it on Highland snow covered rally stages. Sorry, public roads. However, I just fitted a set of the latest generation Good Year Ultragrip Performance+ tyres to my dad's Evoque and they are blindingly good, definitely better than the Pirellis as you would expect from being a generation newer. On cold dry roads, slush, wet, ice, frost, snow etc they were just outstandingly good which tallies with the reviews they seem to have been getting. Obviously they aren't Nordics but they do come with all the ratings you'd need for getting up alpine passes (Nordics would definitely give away on the black and slushy tarmac performance in favour of snow performance). While it wasn't deep snow, I took that car up the Bealach na Ba between Christmas and New Year where the road was sheet ice topped with a few inches of snow. The tyres were absolutely spot on with no slip, even where the road is quite aggressively cambered to the outside on the 1 in 3 sections.

[Alscoob]

Originally Posted by Ennoch

Fourthly, turning the DSC to the Dynamic setting seemed to make quite a significant difference to how the car drove when I had it in the snow up north. Obviously steering feel is still woeful as it is at any other time too but where with full DSC on the car would feel nervous, set to Dynamic it felt far more planted, albeit it was obviously moving about a bit. I think that this is down to the DSC cutting power and applying brakes in a very nervous, overly nannying manner as it feels even the slightest slide or twitch, so that it just leaves the car feeling very jittery and not necessarily responding to your inputs as you would expect or like.

Agreed Traction control off in snow, don't want the car auto cutting the drive, you'll go nowhere!

Old car but good example - Porsche Cayenne summer tyres in snow, useless. Same car with winters OK - TC off, absolutely brilliant

[Niicckk]

I'm currently trying running 400m on my 4 series gran coupe.

Staggered wheels 8 and 8.5 with 225 45 18 front and 245 45 18 on the rear. All Dunlop wintersports. Works well and grip is great.

[sensible]

I have 400M winter wheels with Michelin Alpin Pilot PA4 winter tyres, all sized at 225/45 R18 95V M + S. They are on 8J wheels on the front and 8.5J wheels on the rear. It works well and the sizes are within the limits of the wheels, and on my tyre panel inside the door, this is the only size recommended for a winter tyre.
These fit over M-Sport brakes.

[Rhino at Work]

I have a set of 400M wheels. The first winter set I had were Sottozeros on 225/45/R18 all round which were fine but the rears had very little "overhang" to protect the rims from kerbs.

I replaced them last Autumn with Conti TS860s as I could get the correct 255/40/R18 rears. So far I would say that this is a better set up and that the Contis are the better tyre.

[BBri89]

Staggered would be wider tyres at rear. Same size tyres is square setup, and that is what I would recommend.

225/45/18s on all 4 wheels.
For snow driving, as Ennoch and others said, turn the DSC off (by putting it into Dynamic Traction). It just prevents the computers applying the brakes constantly to individual wheels, which unsettles the car. It's clearly not been engineered for low-grip, and the drivers manual even recommends turning it off in low-traction from what I remember.


You get what you pay for, and I would strongly advise to go for one of the top brands, particularly winter tyres.
Pretty much anything from Michelin, Pirelli, Bridgestone or Goodyear will be good, but Nokian are also an excellent winter tyre brand, and Vredstein put out some decent ones too.
My advice is to avoid runflats if at all possible as well.

[peetee]

Thanks for the response guys. I really do appreciate it. My F31 335d x-drive will be making a trip to the artic circle from the UK soon. I picked up a spare set of 400m wheels so I can put winters on them.

I'm looking for recommendations on the best stud-less snow tyres. The spare set have the following tyres on at the moment 255 40 18 (Rear) with 225 45 18 (Front). They'll be coming off with the winters going on. Am I ok to put 225 45 18's on at all 4 corners. Also wondering if anyone know what BMW themselves recommend in terms of setup on the x-drive.

FYI my has the bigger m performance brake calipers.


Thanks.

[sensible]

Originally Posted by BBri89

Staggered would be wider tyres at rear. Same size tyres is square setup, and that is what I would recommend.

225/45/18s on all 4 wheels.
For snow driving, as Ennoch and others said, turn the DSC off (by putting it into Dynamic Traction). It just prevents the computers applying the brakes constantly to individual wheels, which unsettles the car. It's clearly not been engineered for low-grip, and the drivers manual even recommends turning it off in low-traction from what I remember.


You get what you pay for, and I would strongly advise to go for one of the top brands, particularly winter tyres.
Pretty much anything from Michelin, Pirelli, Bridgestone or Goodyear will be good, but Nokian are also an excellent winter tyre brand, and Vredstein put out some decent ones too.
My advice is to avoid runflats if at all possible as well.

Also, as well as turning off DSC, I find it best to put the car in Eco mode. This prevents excessive acceleration and spinning the wheels.

[doncarlyon]

With x-drive as well i'm sure you will be perfectly fine. I wouldn't hesitate to get another set of the Vredesteins.

F36 was my first RWD and first auto. When the snow came last year I was slightly nervous as didnt know what to expect from the car.

Other than a Jimny on insa turbo offroad tyres, the BMW was the best I have had for driving in the snow. You just didnt even know there was snow on the road.

Didnt have to consider traction control settings, I just put it in Sport as always and off I went.

[peetee]

Thread Update

Spoke to BMW and the factory recommendation for my F31 335d X-Drive was 405m (18inch wheels). All four alloys are same size (square setup). The winter tyre BMW recommends is Pirelli SottoZero 3. 225/45/18 all round.

Picked up a set off eBay. The previous owner bought directly from BMW 4 years ago. He has since sold his car. Good deal

Hope this helps somebody


Cheers.

[sensible]

Originally Posted by peetee

Thread Update

Spoke to BMW and the factory recommendation for my F31 335d X-Drive was 405m (18inch wheels). All four alloys are same size (square setup). The winter tyre BMW recommends is Pirelli SottoZero 3. 225/45/18 all round.

Picked up a set off eBay. The previous owner bought directly from BMW 4 years ago. He has since sold his car. Good deal

Hope this helps somebody


Cheers.

Yes, that would be the ideal set up, but with so many sets of 400M on the market 8J fronts and 8.5J rear, the 225/45 18 tyres all round will work as a square set up, but in an ideal world 8J wheels all round is better as they are more suited to that tyre size.

[jackstrath]

It depens on what your driving on, soft fresh snow and youll be better with wider tyres.
Hard base or ice roads thinner tyres will be better, although how much is arguable in the ice with out the stud's.

Your a 335d xdrive so in reality your going to be ok with 225/255's or a square set up all round.

I ran 225/255 winters on my E91 335d(rwd) and they were better at moving from a start than my current 235 square set up on my F31 340i (rwd)

So in short you have to weigh up what your more likly to be driving on and how often as like everything its a compromise if your wanting maximum perforance in set conditions.

Iv used a fair share of winter tyres over the years just to see what i find good as as mention above any of the main brands are normally pretty good out the box, nokians are also another good shout as are the toyo snow proxies although they are the worst in dry/wet weather (not bad just not as good as your main brands but the price reflecs that), but the main point is winters are worth it in the snow, summers just cant come close at all!

[sensible]

Originally Posted by jackstrath

It depens on what your driving on, soft fresh snow and youll be better with wider tyres.
Hard base or ice roads thinner tyres will be better, although how much is arguable in the ice with out the stud's.

Your a 335d xdrive so in reality your going to be ok with 225/255's or a square set up all round.

I ran 225/255 winters on my E91 335d(rwd) and they were better at moving from a start than my current 235 square set up on my F31 340i (rwd)

So in short you have to weigh up what your more likly to be driving on and how often as like everything its a compromise if your wanting maximum perforance in set conditions.

Iv used a fair share of winter tyres over the years just to see what i find good as as mention above any of the main brands are normally pretty good out the box, nokians are also another good shout as are the toyo snow proxies although they are the worst in dry/wet weather (not bad just not as good as your main brands but the price reflecs that), but the main point is winters are worth it in the snow, summers just cant come close at all!

I don't think that is correct. Narrower tyres are better in snow. The contact patch is smaller so there is more weight pressing on each square cm in contact with the road than a wider tyre which spreads the load.

If you go by the plate on the inside of the door it doesn't show any staggered winter M+S tyres. On my 4 series GC it only recommends 225/45 in 18" wheel size, which confirms the 225 square set up.

Just googled it to be sure and you have it the wrong way round. Narrower tyres best for snow and wider tyres best for hard surfaces.

[jackstrath]

Originally Posted by sensible

I don't think that is correct. Narrower tyres are better in snow. The contact patch is smaller so there is more weight pressing on each square cm in contact with the road than a wider tyre which spreads the load.

If you go by the plate on the inside of the door it doesn't show any staggered winter M+S tyres. On my 4 series GC it only recommends 225/45 in 18" wheel size, which confirms the 225 square set up.

Just googled it to be sure and you have it the wrong way round. Narrower tyres best for snow and wider tyres best for hard surfaces.

Have a read what i said again, on fresh snow you want to spread the load on a big as a contact patch as you can so you dont just sink into the fresh snow, and like i said if your rwd you will 100% want that as you dont have 4wd to help "pull" the car.

Without google, Iv done my fair share of driving in snow/ice in highland scotland, Alps, USA and Japan to know what works better on hard base snow, sheet ice, and fresh soft snow that takes you hours just to dig the car out....
Like i said above it all depends on what your expecting to drive on, wider tyres have the advantage of being pumped up to decress there contact patch for harder surfaces but the added bonus of being wider for the soft now should you need it, plus they have better perforance on the dry/damp roads between the snow. Also in reality a 225 isnt even that narrow, 205< is what id class as narrow...

With google....

Winter has the largest variety of surface conditions, meaning that the roads could be dry, wet, covered in snow, ice mud and slush, creating a need for the best winter tyres.
On soft surfaces, such as deep snow, wider tyres are better, as smaller tyre pressure prevents the wheels from getting stuck in the snow.
Narrow tyres, on the other hand, are superior on hard surfaces, where the increased pressure results in greater grip.
If you often drive on roads covered in hard snow or ice, typically found on infrequently maintained local roads, it's better to fit narrow tyres.
If you drive on main roads and city streets, which are typically well maintained, it is better to use standard tyres.
As for wide tyres, these only excel in deep snow, which is a surface that the average driver will rarely experience, if at all.

https://www.oponeo.co.uk/blog/wide-o...res-for-winter

[Tengocity]

I've got the 18" 405s and they're absolutely lovely wheels. They're forged and unbelievably light, so between that and that 18inch size, the ride comfort is fantastic.

I think the dynamic benefits of square or staggered are just some trade offs you need to consider and mostly outlined already. My 340 is remapped and i haven't found the square set up to be overly tail happy with that power.

What I do like about a square set up is that you can rotate them each winter to even out the wear, and so most people can get 3, perhaps even 4 full winters out of one set, maybe more if they don't do that many miles.