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      05-12-2016, 06:20 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiten View Post
The first Z4 was a horrible car.
Disagree, I'm on my 2nd one. Arguably this is one of the last cars they made "for us" (6MT, NA I6, no adaptive BS, under 3,000 lb for non-m...). If you like driving, the Z is a great partner. If you're into things like that cheesy RR commercial you posted (great car too I'm sure) I can see how it misses the mark
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      05-12-2016, 07:09 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by yousefnjr View Post
Disagree, I'm on my 2nd one. Arguably this is one of the last cars they made "for us" (6MT, NA I6, no adaptive BS, under 3,000 lb for non-m...). If you like driving, the Z is a great partner. If you're into things like that cheesy RR commercial you posted (great car too I'm sure) I can see how it misses the mark
I do love driving, and the fact I'm about to hit BMW #41 in just over 20 years shows just how much. I'm not totally BMW biased, but I have some of the greatest memories in life thanks to them. I've also had my fair share of awful ones too, and give credit and critique where it's due. I've had amazing cars other than BMW's and some truly awful ones too (W124 MB 500E left me partially deaf and torn up when the voltage regulator went bad and the battery under the seat behind me exploded like a grenade). lThat RR video may be cheesy, most great marketing usually is in some manner, but it's a success by all accounts.

E85/6 (non M) featured that lovely first iteration of electric steering and the unfortunate side effect of massive rear toe change that couldn't be kept in check on anything but a flat surface traveling straight ahead. The interior was a let down and the paint finish is probably the lowest point of QC in recent memory. The M's took care of the steering issue and finally gave the car a soul, the LCI tidied up the aesthetics, but i wouldn't put it in the top 5 of BMW's last hits for "us". I think several options from the first Gen 1er and some other models (S54 powered M Shoe please) are far more deserving of even the top 10 spots.

I've been pondering off and on for a couple of weeks thinking about "what qualities make a BMW a BMW?" and hearing what others think it means. BMW just turned 100 and there is so much diverse history with the brand. From the Dixi, 328, Baroque Angels, 507 and lesser known 503, "Big 6's", most notably the American Bavaria Version, E9 3.0Cs's, E12 M535i, '02's (including the turbo), M1, E30, E31 and E32 with V12's, E34 that brought back the V8, Z8, James Bond in a tiny BMW roadster tooling around Cuba, the E65 that made 3/4 of the civilized world go silent and vomit a little at the same time. So many cars, so much diversity, I have to ask, not what makes a BMW a BMW, but rather, when is a BMW not a BMW?

Last edited by lemetier; 05-12-2016 at 08:00 AM..
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      05-12-2016, 07:43 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by im4su2 View Post
That covers the current generation. From context it would appear the poster you replied to was thinking longer term plans, and no one knows what will happen next generation yet.

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Audi doesn't want to canibolize any higher margin A7 variant by bringing over any A5 Sportback variant.
I am not so certain that's true. It depends on market factors. In particular, if competitors enter that segment in the US and it accounts for high volume, Audi will be likely to offer a competing product.
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      05-12-2016, 08:03 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiten
The first Z4 was a horrible car. With the E89, an all female design team was assigned the task of making it a more refined car and marketing thought a folding hard-top would be a sound compromise. I think they were successful aesthetically and material wise, but at the same time, made it far too expensive to produce and the lack of a true coupe with the negatives of a folding hard-top hurt it. It's a fantastic car (albeit a bit porky), but falls in a bad price point in relation to its product point. The Z5 will bridge the mid-range in both marketing, model position, and price point. This leaves room for Z models above and below; something the E89 didn't allow.
Not sure why the "all female" team is relevant. Are you trying to blame women for the downfall of the Z4? I assure you if BMW let me design a new Z4 coupe. It would be bananas and under $65k loaded.
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      05-12-2016, 08:17 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by m981addicts View Post
That-a-boy, Bmw. Now make that 2GC an M2GC--I really want an M2 with 5 points of entry.
I don't need 5, but the kids need to be able to get in and out of the car.
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      05-12-2016, 08:18 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by F87LUV View Post
Not sure why the "all female" team is relevant. Are you trying to blame women for the downfall of the Z4? I assure you if BMW let me design a new Z4 coupe. It would be bananas and under $65k loaded.
LOL. Not at all. I said they were successful at achieving the task they were selected for.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/05/au...MMER.html?_r=0

The Z4 failed because it tried to be too much at once and the quality improvements combined with the folding roof just drove the price out of line. Another point of failure was the lack of aspirational value. The Z3 had a coupe option, the ///M variants , Z8, and Alpina Roadster to bolster its appeal. The First gen Z4 at least had the coupe option and ///M variants. I actually am quite fond of the E89, and its unfortunate it was just pushed out there all alone. The design is one of the better more recent BMW's and the effort put into it was apparent. The sticker shock wasn't so easy to swallow though and it took absurdly Subvened leases to move them. For a while it was the slowest selling car in America with average inventory days over 400. I had two....both 35is and were on 12mo leases for less than $600mo with zero out of pocket...on a near $70k car.

Last edited by lemetier; 05-12-2016 at 08:29 AM..
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      05-12-2016, 08:20 AM   #95
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Why? 2 series were supposed to be coupes and convertibles. BMW just screwing up everything making all these models that won't sell for shit. Too many models. Hell, why have a 4 series? Could have kept it 3 series coupe.
2 series GC would be an update to all of the E36 and E46 drivers who are holding onto their cars because they want a small, nimble, rear-drive "sedan" with 4 doors.
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      05-12-2016, 08:27 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by marcva View Post
I don't need 5, but the kids need to be able to get in and out of the car.
I have my wife's wheelchair to lug around. That 5th one is the most important. 3 and 4 makes it convenient when I need to place things larger than a breadbox on the back seats.

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      05-12-2016, 08:46 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by miamiten
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Originally Posted by 1230vani View Post
This is unfortunately not true if you ask me. I still ordered one knowing new one is coming fast. I think new X5 is as early as August 2017 production.
No the X5 won't come that soon. It and the X6 are built in more than one factory besides Spartanburg and all the component tooling lines and Joint Venture Assembly Points have to all be updated for CLAR and UKL compatibility. Current EOP for F15 is July 2018, EOP for F16 July 2019. This is just a guess, but I could see both being moved to March 2019 EOP and X5,X6 SOP close to X7 SOP.
Thanks you might be right. Anyways it sooner than we all expected.
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      05-12-2016, 08:51 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiten
Quote:
Originally Posted by F87LUV View Post
Not sure why the "all female" team is relevant. Are you trying to blame women for the downfall of the Z4? I assure you if BMW let me design a new Z4 coupe. It would be bananas and under $65k loaded.
LOL. Not at all. I said they were successful at achieving the task they were selected for.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/05/au...MMER.html?_r=0

The Z4 failed because it tried to be too much at once and the quality improvements combined with the folding roof just drove the price out of line. Another point of failure was the lack of aspirational value. The Z3 had a coupe option, the ///M variants , Z8, and Alpina Roadster to bolster its appeal. The First gen Z4 at least had the coupe option and ///M variants. I actually am quite fond of the E89, and its unfortunate it was just pushed out there all alone. The design is one of the better more recent BMW's and the effort put into it was apparent. The sticker shock wasn't so easy to swallow though and it took absurdly Subvened leases to move them. For a while it was the slowest selling car in America with average inventory days over 400. I had two....both 35is and were on absurdly incentivized 12mo leases for less than $600mo with zero out of pocket...on a near $70k car
I had two e89s as well. Only because there was no other car I wanted after my e86 coupe and even if it wasn't close enough, it was still the only BMW I wanted. In retrospect, i should've maybe purchased a leftover 35si instead of the M2 but I was trying to be practical and have a backseat for the first time in almost a decade. I hope BMW wakes up and makes a uturn back to a smaller but more qualified line up.
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      05-12-2016, 08:54 AM   #99
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It doesn't make any sense to ditch the 6er Gran Coupé just because of the 9er. The 9er is supposed to be a whole new ball game above the 7er into RR Ghost territory, while the 6er Gran Coupé is basically just a sleeker mix of 5er and 7er.

I fear though that BMW wants to turn the 6er out of a 5er coupé into a smaller 2+2 Porsche 911 fighter... While that's where a Z6 Coupé would rather make sense...

Last edited by advantage20; 05-12-2016 at 08:59 AM..
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      05-12-2016, 09:50 AM   #100
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The 9er has now been confirmed.

Second: products. We will be expanding our product portfolio in all brands and all segments, including:

Market leadership for BMW in the upper segments.
Expansion of the BMW M programme.
Expansion of the BMW i family.

Our large models strengthen the premium positioning of the BMW brand. We will be introducing an additional BMW model in the luxury class. There will also be a strong new addition to the successful BMW X line-up in 2018, with the X7. Rolls-Royce is also planning a new model with the project name Cullinan. High demand and profitability converge at BMW M, where sales have almost quadrupled since 2010. Now, we will continue to expand BMW M, with new M and M Performance models, including the M2 Coupé, which came out in April. The new M4 GTS was released in a limited edition.
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      05-12-2016, 09:51 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiten View Post
Quality wise it was. Cost cutting methods and underpinnings that were reheated one too many times didn't work out well in the end. They drove well (especially with an S54 up front), but that didn't help justify the the remaining lackluster qualities.
Well I have an '08 Z4 3.0si Coupe. It was a $50K car originally. The paint has held up well and looks good on my car. I got it used in 2014 w 23K on the clock. My car has the sport package and Msport seats, and the extended leather. The interior looks almost new still at 49,000 miles now. I really like the EPS; it is far better than the shitrack in the F30. I've had 3 other BMWs in the past 28 years and haven't driven anything but a 3-series as a DD since 1997, which is about 500,000 miles. I'm not sure what is lackluster about the E85/86 nor cost cutted about it.
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      05-12-2016, 09:59 AM   #102
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Scott, can you comment on the hatchback report? I was hoping BMW would go the other direction... And bring a hot hatch to the US! I wish the current 135i hatch was available in the States.
The 1er as we know it will be known as the 2er and will be aligned with MINI IV which moves into the C-Segment as the current MINI Clubman.
In its place will be a smaller MINI model and equivalent BMW that will take the 1er name. There will also be an equivalent SAV model for the segment dubbed X-Cite.
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      05-12-2016, 10:07 AM   #103
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The 9er has now been confirmed.

...

There will also be a strong new addition to the successful BMW X line-up in 2018, with the X7.
So, essentially, the only thing in the article we can bank on are the X7 and 9 Series, the first of which was already confirmed by BMW, and the latter was all but confirmed.

The rest is speculative at best, lies-damn-lies at worst (such as the BS about the 2 Series Gran Coupe replacing the 1 Series hatchback). Some of it may happen, sure, but some will not.

And thanks for the added details about the hatchbacks and what else is going on on in the sub-3 product lineups. We had heard about those coming changes before, but its good to see it reiterated as a reminder.

The only thing we need now is some type of confirmation of the 2 Series Sedan (or perhaps a similar or maybe not-so-similar 2 Series Gran Coupe) for sale outside China. Plus platform details of other future US-Bound 2 Series passenger cars (UKL?, CLAR?, something shared with Toyota?), and equivalent M models.
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      05-12-2016, 10:24 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
So, essentially, the only thing in the article we can bank on are the X7 and 9 Series, the first of which was already confirmed by BMW, and the latter was all but confirmed.

The rest is speculative at best, lies-damn-lies at worst (such as the BS about the 2 Series Gran Coupe replacing the 1 Series hatchback). Some of it may happen, sure, but some will not.

And thanks for the added details about the hatchbacks and what else is going on on in the sub-3 product lineups. We had heard about those coming changes before, but its good to see it reiterated as a reminder.

The only thing we need now is some type of confirmation of the 2 Series Sedan (or perhaps a similar or maybe not-so-similar 2 Series Gran Coupe) for sale outside China. Plus platform details of future 2 Series passenger cars (UKL?, CLAR?, something shared with Toyota), and equivalent M models.
I expect the China New Compact Sedan will be available in other markets due to the popularity of the segment as times progress.
But for now the emphasis is solely on China.

But they have investigated possibilities for the car to be manufactured such as the upcoming new plant in Mexico or even Brazil. Such a car also has potential in markets such as India where it can also be manufactured.

Mercedes-Benz are also planning a China only A-Klasse sedan which shows how lucrative the C-Segment is in China which is the main segment still showcasing growth. Whilst other segments decline.

As far as we can tell at the moment the 2er will split to have the more sportier models under RWD with the Sporthatch,Active and Gran Tourer on the more practical side.
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      05-12-2016, 10:27 AM   #105
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Is the Toyota partnership dead?
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      05-12-2016, 10:31 AM   #106
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Is the Toyota partnership dead?
Not at all and will be expanding
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      05-12-2016, 10:39 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
I expect the China New Compact Sedan will be available in other markets due to the popularity of the segment as times progress.
But for now the emphasis is solely on China.

But they have investigated possibilities for the car to be manufactured such as the upcoming new plant in Mexico or even Brazil. Such a car also has potential in markets such as India where it can also be manufactured.

Mercedes-Benz are also planning a China only A-Klasse sedan which shows how lucrative the C-Segment is in China which is the main segment still showcasing growth. Whilst other segments decline.

As far as we can tell at the moment the 2er will split to have the more sportier models under RWD with the Sporthatch,Active and Gran Tourer on the more practical side.
China is going to need even more "affordable" luxury brand offerings. The super wealthy will remain (as evidenced by the RR reception), but a significant amount of Chinese wealth has been moved offshore (mostly to the US). That money isn't going to prop up US sales and isn't going to help the mid range to lower bracket of the upper range product segments back in China.

Sounds as if the Advisory Board has finally agreed to take the bold and appropriate first moves to take advantage of an economic slowdown and future recovery (not sure about the 9er in the US though)
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      05-12-2016, 11:44 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
I expect the China New Compact Sedan will be available in other markets due to the popularity of the segment as times progress.
But for now the emphasis is solely on China.

But they have investigated possibilities for the car to be manufactured such as the upcoming new plant in Mexico or even Brazil. Such a car also has potential in markets such as India where it can also be manufactured.

Mercedes-Benz are also planning a China only A-Klasse sedan which shows how lucrative the C-Segment is in China which is the main segment still showcasing growth. Whilst other segments decline.

As far as we can tell at the moment the 2er will split to have the more sportier models under RWD with the Sporthatch,Active and Gran Tourer on the more practical side.
I really dont get why your company "sent" you to this forum. Clearly bmw lost interest in building the "ultimate driving machine" (otherwise no fwd 1ser would ever make the light of day). Its all about $$$, filling niches and luxury. And thats ok. I dont own bmw so they are free to do whatever. But why oh why do they pay you to vomit your marketing bs here when this is a fan forum?
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      05-12-2016, 12:05 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X3paul View Post
I really dont get why your company "sent" you to this forum. Clearly bmw lost interest in building the "ultimate driving machine" (otherwise no fwd 1ser would ever make the light of day). Its all about $$$, filling niches and luxury. And thats ok. I dont own bmw so they are free to do whatever. But why oh why do they pay you to vomit your marketing bs here when this is a fan forum?
Why the hate to Scott? He consistently brings relevant info that many of us want to know. You call this a fan forum, but lately it is full of "now i know my what my next car won't be" and comments of the like.
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      05-12-2016, 12:41 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X3paul View Post
I really dont get why your company "sent" you to this forum. Clearly bmw lost interest in building the "ultimate driving machine" (otherwise no fwd 1ser would ever make the light of day). Its all about $$$, filling niches and luxury. And thats ok. I dont own bmw so they are free to do whatever. But why oh why do they pay you to vomit your marketing bs here when this is a fan forum?
You think BMW is the only company with back channel enthusiast forum personas? Every single manufacturer does and a large number of Executives and Upper Management read and sometimes actively participate. I know for a fact Ludwig Willisch reads this site quite frequently and product decisions have been made based off comments by members here. Quite a few last minute changes to the 7er were decided standing with him, drinks in hand, with nothing more than this app open on my phone.

Name one single existing manufacturer that HASN'T evolved in recent times to insure their survival and growth.
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