[dinonz]

Originally Posted by doublevanosrc

I pulled up behind an F30 328 this morning and noticed while it was idling (at a stoplight) that the exhaust tips were trembling like a ricer's car. Is this why??




As oppose to the R&T article well I agree the E90 provides a better driving experience however i think they bashed the turbo 4 too much. I love the way the F30 looks in and out and how it pulls, I just don't like the way it feels behind the wheel, just too much isolation as oppose to engagement which really has very little to do with the turbo 4.

Potentially yes - is likely caused by engine vibrations.

I went from an E90 328i to an F30 335i and do not miss one single thing. I have the DHP and 20" rims, so trying to compare "road feel" to the old E90 with 17" rims is not fair, but I prefer the F30 in Sport mode (next would be the E90, then the F30 in Comfort mode). But I will be totally honest and say I went to the 335i purely for the 6 cylinder engine. If the 328i was a 2.0 Turbo I6 I would have got that - but I just love the natural smoothness of an inline 6.

[Dylanize]

There's no replacement for displacement. If you are really butthurt about a few MPG's go buy a Prius.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by bimmerjph

I literally could not give less of a damn about numbers. I care about how a car feels. In that regard the E90 wins big time. If waving your dick around saying you have 0.1mm more arm room, 1cm more legroom, you go zero to sixty in 0.4 seconds less, or that your car pulls 0.1 more G's than someone else's car provides a great feeling car for you thats fine. It doesn't for me. Yes, the F30 has more grip. Yes, might even be faster around a track. Read my words, that doesn't matter to me. I want a car that is fun to drive rather than quick. I have driven both cars yet own neither, so I have an relatively unbiased opinion. From my many test drives and loaner cars, I came to the same conclusion as they did. As for fuel economy, the difference is negligible at best in the real world.

Not sure why your rant is pointed at me.

I like the way the acceleration of my F30 FEELS. I like the lighter weight and positioning of the N20 over the front axle FEELS when abruptly changing direction. I like the FEEL of the airier cabin. I like the FEEL of the car remaining composed over bumps and irregular pavement.

I did not like the FEEL of the steering at first, being a bit light and a bit lacking in feedback-I like the FEEL of it now with my current wheel/tire/spring combo. I did not like the FEEL of a teence too much body roll-again-it's feeling about right-just needs a rearsway bar.

Is it the car I drive when I am all about FEELING? No, it was not bought to be. When it is all about FEELING I drive the E36/7, from the smell of the Nappa, the feel of the tiny Euro-airbag steering wheel, the FEELING of being inches off the ground, the FEELING of having the steering, brakes, and gas pedal hard wired to my brain. Yeah-that's the car I go for.

Thinking the E90 OR F30 is some amazing SPORTS CAR is comical. These are sedans that happen to have some good bones for drivers with some sporting intentions. If you are that obsessed with FEEL-you can get that in a used Miata.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by doublevanosrc

I pulled up behind an F30 328 this morning and noticed while it was idling (at a stoplight) that the exhaust tips were trembling like a ricer's car. Is this why??

LOL-no.

The exhaust moves due to the rubber mounts/play in the exhaust system. Without rubber and allowing for a bit of movement, vibration would transmit more into the cabin. This is why you have rubber engine mounts that allow the engine to move too. A broken in and warmed up N20 idles quite smoothly. I have ASS disabled and sometimes find myself unsure if the car is still on when at redlights.

Originally Posted by Dylanize

There's no replacement for displacement. If you are really butthurt about a few MPG's go buy a Prius.

That old is saying should be put to pasture.

The replacement for displacement is BOOST.

I had a guy in a C6 Vette say that same line to me. When we raced and he got burned he admitted to not knowing the sound my car was making was a blower. Yeah, 13+lbs of boost is a great equalizer when comparing his 6.2L of DISPLACEMENT vs my 3.2L

[oceanview]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Here is how I would make things happy in fantasy land and have everyone shut up.

I would have a 2.5L fully forged 6cylinder with direct injection and a twin scroll turbo. I would work with the packaging engineers to make it very compact and light weight so it sits farther back than the N55 and weights less similar to the N20.

The 335 would not have the N55. It would have the same 2.5L, but with a factory PPI treatment like the E92 335 is, and include extra cooling, overboost function, exhaust etc and have 325hp, or about 310whp.

How does that sound?

A six 2.5L will not bring any remarkable weight loss compared to the 3.0L.
Unless you use lighter materials (which will make the engine production more expensive)
Getting 325hp out of an 2.5L can be done, but for what price?
Look at the N54 and N55. Same hp, same torque but the N55 lost a few kilogramm of weight (other crankshaft, other Valvtronic and so on.)

I do understand the comparision of old and new models.
But in my opinion the F20 is now the size of what the 3-Series used to be and the F30 probably is what the old 5-Series used to be.
Well if the F30 is big for one then go for an F20!
Why is that? Probably because the market is demanding it. Otherwise BMW would Change it for sure if they wouldn't sell any 3-Series anyore. But it's their Blockbuster!

For myself, I'm fine with the 335i F31. Finally I can sit in a 3-Series in a good position for my legs and arms! I'm on the 3-Series since 1989. I'm not the kind of speedy driver anymore. 3-Series aged with me...
And I don't care if I spend 1000 $ more on gas per year compared to the N20 Engine. I just like the N55 more than the N20.
If I have to save that kind of money, I buy a 316d or take the train, or buy a Smart or a Prius (naaahhh won't do that) .

BMW (as other luxury car manufacturers) is forced by the european countries to build cars with very low CO2 exhaust. Or they pay a penalty.
That's why large ccm Engines are going to dissapear from the market in the next decade. Unless the find another technical way to cut the CO2 exhaust of an N55 to about half of today.
(I'm sure this will safe the world....)

And guys, take of those lousy 17" wheels and upgrade to at least 19" non-runflats, I'm sure most of the handling complaints will be gone too!

The worst thing for me about the F30 beeing bigger than older 3-series is that it takes more time to polish it!

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by oceanview

A six 2.5L will not bring any remarkable weight loss compared to the 3.0L.
Unless you use lighter materials (which will make the engine production more expensive)
Getting 325hp out of an 2.5L can be done, but for what price?
Look at the N54 and N55. Same hp, same torque but the N55 lost a few kilogramm of weight (other crankshaft, other Valvtronic and so on.)

I do understand the comparision of old and new models.
But in my opinion the F20 is now the size of what the 3-Series used to be and the F30 probably is what the old 5-Series used to be.
Well if the F30 is big for one then go for an F20!
Why is that? Probably because the market is demanding it. Otherwise BMW would Change it for sure if they wouldn't sell any 3-Series anyore. But it's their Blockbuster!

For myself, I'm fine with the 335i F31. Finally I can sit in a 3-Series in a good position for my legs and arms! I'm on the 3-Series since 1989. I'm not the kind of speedy driver anymore. 3-Series aged with me...
And I don't care if I spend 1000 $ more on gas per year compared to the N20 Engine. I just like the N55 more than the N20.
If I have to save that kind of money, I buy a 316d or take the train, or buy a Smart or a Prius (naaahhh won't do that) .

BMW (as other luxury car manufacturers) is forced by the european countries to build cars with very low CO2 exhaust. Or they pay a penalty.
That's why large ccm Engines are going to dissapear from the market in the next decade. Unless the find another technical way to cut the CO2 exhaust of an N55 to about half of today.
(I'm sure this will safe the world....)

And guys, take of those lousy 17" wheels and upgrade to at least 19" non-runflats, I'm sure most of the handling complaints will be gone too!

The worst thing for me about the F30 beeing bigger than older 3-series is that it takes more time to polish it!

Are you ignoring my sentence "I would work with the packaging engineers to make it very compact and light weight so it sits farther back than the N55 and weights less similar to the N20."

I am talking about using R&D to develop a new engine, and have access to better utilize new materials. The N55 was likely developed starting in '08-09. 4 years later, I am sure BMW has learned a few things and will develop an engine that can give similar or greater power while taking up less space and having less weight. New/light materials are only more expensive at first. BMW is using more and more carbon fiber because it is a material that is gaining exposure and the mass and way in which it is produced is meaning reduction in costs. That will filter and trickle down and true of many technologies, techniques and materials.

I find it funny that I make a post and title it a fantasy and you reply what is wrong or right about it lol.

[KevRyd]

I'll see your feel and raise to a grope, lol

I'm feeling very feely right now so forgive my feely-ness.

Kevin

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Not sure why your rant is pointed at me.

I like the way the acceleration of my F30 FEELS. I like the lighter weight and positioning of the N20 over the front axle FEELS when abruptly changing direction. I like the FEEL of the airier cabin. I like the FEEL of the car remaining composed over bumps and irregular pavement.

I did not like the FEEL of the steering at first, being a bit light and a bit lacking in feedback-I like the FEEL of it now with my current wheel/tire/spring combo. I did not like the FEEL of a teence too much body roll-again-it's feeling about right-just needs a rearsway bar.

It's it the car I drive when I am all about FEELING? No, it was not bought to be. When it is all about FEELING I drive the E36/7, from the smell of the Nappa, the feel of the tiny Euro-airbag steering wheel, the FEELING of being inches off the ground, the FEELING of having the steering, brakes, and gas pedal hard wired to my brain. Yeah-that's the car I go for.

Thinking the E90 OR F30 is some amazing SPORTS CAR is comical. These are sedans that happen to have some good bones for drivers with some sporting intentions. If you are that obsessed with FEEL-you can get that in a used Miata.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by KevRyd

I'll see your feel and raise to a grope, lol

I'm feeling very feely right now so forgive my feely-ness.

Kevin

Just don't turn into the guy who puts his pecker in the cars tailpipe and copulates with it. I have read articles, people actually DO that and try and fornicate with cars lol.

My wife and I both check out other girls, no one cares. She jokes that I more often ooh and ahh over a certain car that goes by. She says luckily I never get THAT excited by a car vs a female. Then we would have a problem lol.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Are you ignoring my sentence "I would work with the packaging engineers to make it very compact and light weight so it sits farther back than the N55 and weights less similar to the N20."

Easier said than done. You can only make a inline 6 cylinder engine so short due to the fact that you have 6 cylinders all in a row, and an engine of 2/3 the CC (going from 3.0 to 2.0) is not going to be 2/3 the length - more like 90% of the length. Do the math on the cylinder diameters with relative bore/stroke ratios and you will see what I mean.

[KevRyd]

I disagree with the development of the engine as you state in that I believe these engines are a refinement that has spanned decades.

Th N20 is basically an N55 with 2 less cylinders, Vanos, Twinpower Turbo, all the same or extremely similar to the N55, so it it really all that revolutionary?

The weight of the N55 IMHO has way less effect on the 335i than you keep claiming. you can notice the difference but it is not as glaring a contrast as you state. I prefer the weight increase as the 335 seems more planted and
solid. and oh that power!

Kevin

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Are you ignoring my sentence "I would work with the packaging engineers to make it very compact and light weight so it sits farther back than the N55 and weights less similar to the N20."

I am talking about using R&D to develop a new engine, and have access to better utilize new materials. The N55 was likely developed starting in '08-09. 4 years later, I am sure BMW has learned a few things and will develop an engine that can give similar or greater power while taking up less space and having less weight. New/light materials are only more expensive at first. BMW is using more and more carbon fiber because it is a material that is gaining exposure and the mass and way in which it is produced is meaning reduction in costs. That will filter and trickle down and true of many technologies, techniques and materials.

I find it funny that I make a post and title it a fantasy and you reply what is wrong or right about it lol.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by dinonz

Easier said than done. You can only make a inline 6 cylinder engine so short due to the fact that you have 6 cylinders all in a row, and an engine of 2/3 the CC (going from 3.0 to 2.0) is not going to be 2/3 the length - more like 90% of the length. Do the math on the cylinder diameters with relative bore/stroke ratios and you will see what I mean.

No, I know.

But you can impregnate the steel perhaps with other minerals that give it strength and better cooling properties allowing for thinner wall thicknesses and less meat in between cylinders.

I never claimed you could make a I6 the same length of an I4, but with materials, and good engineering R&D, you can certainly close some of the gap.

BMW certainly would have more knowledge and technologies to utilize in 4 years time, no?(From the start of the N55 development to now) Look at the VR6, a narrow angle V-6 that was designed to take the space normally provided by a 4...it was creative and innovative. Let's give BMW some credit that they can engineer some interesting things if given the chance as well.

[KevRyd]

I don't really know what to say to that, wont even contemplate the logistic of such an act LOL

Kevin

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Just don't turn into the guy who puts his pecker in the cars tailpipe and copulates with it. I have read articles, people actually DO that and try and fornicate with cars lol.

My wife and I both check out other girls, no one cares. She jokes that I more often ooh and ahh over a certain car that goes by. She says luckily I never get THAT excited by a car vs a female. Then we would have a problem lol.

[JustinGTP]

I have a fully loaded 09 E90, it was at the dealer for 2 days. My loaner was a loaded F30 Luxury with Lane Depature, etc etc. I love the interior, don't like some of the controls, but as soon as I drove my E90 with Active Steering, can't give that up for some fancy LED corona rings

[bimmerjph]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Not sure why your rant is pointed at me.

I like the way the acceleration of my F30 FEELS. I like the lighter weight and positioning of the N20 over the front axle FEELS when abruptly changing direction. I like the FEEL of the airier cabin. I like the FEEL of the car remaining composed over bumps and irregular pavement.

I did not like the FEEL of the steering at first, being a bit light and a bit lacking in feedback-I like the FEEL of it now with my current wheel/tire/spring combo. I did not like the FEEL of a teence too much body roll-again-it's feeling about right-just needs a rearsway bar.

Is it the car I drive when I am all about FEELING? No, it was not bought to be. When it is all about FEELING I drive the E36/7, from the smell of the Nappa, the feel of the tiny Euro-airbag steering wheel, the FEELING of being inches off the ground, the FEELING of having the steering, brakes, and gas pedal hard wired to my brain. Yeah-that's the car I go for.

Thinking the E90 OR F30 is some amazing SPORTS CAR is comical. These are sedans that happen to have some good bones for drivers with some sporting intentions. If you are that obsessed with FEEL-you can get that in a used Miata.

My rant is pointed at you because you tried to say I was wrong by agreeing with the reviewers.

If you like the way your car feels thats great I am happy for you. I really am. Don't let anyone change your mind. However, don't say someone is wrong if they don't like it.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by KevRyd

I disagree with the development of the engine as you state in that I believe these engines are a refinement that has spanned decades.

Th N20 is basically an N55 with 2 less cylinders, Vanos, Twinpower Turbo, all the same or extremely similar to the N55, so it it really all that revolutionary?

The weight of the N55 IMHO has way less effect on the 335i than you keep claiming. you can notice the difference but it is not as glaring a contrast as you state. I prefer the weight increase as the 335 seems more planted and
solid. and oh that power!

Kevin

The N20 is not revolutionary. I don't know who said it, certainly was not me. I think it's quite good. Good does not have to mean revolutionary. The Wankel engine last seen in the Mazda Rx8, that is revolutionary, though some debate as to how good.

I did not talk about the weight of the N55 being particularly detrimental to the 335. I was explaining that people complain about the N20 for sound and how it is no 6, and other complain about the handling and balance of the N55 in comparison. To get the best of both worlds, you would have the engine placement and weight of the N20 but otherwise have the sound, power and 6 cylinders of the N55.

I stated clearly it was a fantasy. Let's not get too caught up in it. BUT, with lots of money in R&D, BMW could surely develop a 6 cylinder engine that was more compact, lighter, and made the same or more power than the N55. If you feel like BMW is not capable of such a thing, than maybe I just have more faith than you do

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by bimmerjph

My rant is pointed at you because you tried to say I was wrong by agreeing with the reviewers.

If you like the way your car feels thats great I am happy for you. I really am. Don't let anyone change your mind. However, don't say someone is wrong if they don't like it.

You did not read what I wrote.

Go back and re-read it. It's ok.



I'll wait.









You said that you agreed with the reviewers that the ONE thing the F30 did better than the E90 was styling.

I merely pointed out examples that were not opinion based, that were factual, of facets more than styling where the F30 was found to be superior.

Did I read your reply wrong, did you not say it was only the styling? I did not say your opinion is wrong-let's not get all worked up for nothing.

[KevRyd]

I think BMW is constantly working on the next engine!

Kevin

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

The N20 is not revolutionary. I don't know who said it, certainly was not me. I think it's quite good. Good does not have to mean revolutionary. The Wankel engine last seen in the Mazda Rx8, that is revolutionary, though some debate as to how good.

I did not talk about the weight of the N55 being particularly detrimental to the 335. I was explaining that people complain about the N20 for sound and how it is no 6, and other complain about the handling and balance of the N55 in comparison. To get the best of both worlds, you would have the engine placement and weight of the N20 but otherwise have the sound, power and 6 cylinders of the N55.

I stated clearly it was a fantasy. Let's not get too caught up in it. BUT, with lots of money in R&D, BMW could surely develop a 6 cylinder engine that was more compact, lighter, and made the same or more power than the N55. If you feel like BMW is not capable of such a thing, than maybe I just have more faith than you do

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by JustinGTP

I have a fully loaded 09 E90, it was at the dealer for 2 days. My loaner was a loaded F30 Luxury with Lane Depature, etc etc. I love the interior, don't like some of the controls, but as soon as I drove my E90 with Active Steering, can't give that up for some fancy LED corona rings

The loaner you had was with the BASE suspension which is a huge factor in any F30 you drive. There is no sport suspension for the Luxury, BASE or Xdrive cars. Your only chance in those cars of a decent setup is by adding DHP which you will almost NEVER find on a loaner. So yeah, you drove the softest F30 and with the flat base seats.

What is the suspension on your E90?

If your E90 is a base, non Sport-the F30 base non sport is softer yet.

You need the 704 Sports suspension on the F30 to equal the E90 base. That is just how it is.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by KevRyd

I think BMW is constantly working on the next engine!

Kevin

It is.

If it's not, its going out of business.

They(like most OEMs) have teams dedicated not just to what will be coming out 5 years from now, but also 15+.

Again, I am talking from first hand OEM product development experience.

Before I got married and was making a go of living in Detroit full time in the car biz, I looked at taking a job at Ford as a vehicle development engineer where I would do nothing but drive prototypes. They said I would not be driving '08-'09s(this was 2007) but I would be kept on the grounds test tracks where I would drive "12-13-14's, so models at least 5 years out. They are always so on to the next thing it's crazy.

I have seen internal GM documents of a small van with dual sliding doors based on the Citation YEARS before the Dodge Caravan hit in '84, let alone years later before it had both sliding doors.

[BmwFlooner]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Just don't turn into the guy who puts his pecker in the cars tailpipe and copulates with it.

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

But you can impregnate the steel perhaps with other minerals that give it strength and better cooling properties allowing for thinner wall thicknesses and less meat in between cylinders.

Well at least it has practical applications...

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by BmwFlooner

Well at least it has practical applications...

Well played.

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by dinonz

But that's natural evolution of a model line. Each new model seems to be larger than the last - compare the first Honda Civics to the current ones. And then they just add new smaller models to replace the hole they left, and over time they will grow too.

If you want the "baby BMW" then there's something new out for that moniker - the 1 Series. Even though it's almost as big, it's more of the intent of the original 3 series.

The problem I have with the 1 series is that it is still heavy, and it is butt ugly IMHO. If BMW were to make a 2 series coupe, preferably a M2, and keep the weight down around 3000 lbs, or at least offer one that can be made that light, I might get excited again. The 1M came close to what I would like, but was only available in limited numbers and was, still is, overpriced.
I also belief that BMW purposely keeps the styling on the "baby" Bimmers somewhat unattractive, as it isn't supposed to be in the same league as the other models. But then I have to ask myself, why would I pay big money for it?

Honestly for that money I would rather pimp my e30 M3 out by swapping a S54 in to it.