[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

If the suspension just did its job well in the first place, would anyone care about adaptive?

Surely you agree that any suspension system is still a set a compromises, even if one is of better quality and performance than another.

As to active suspensions, isn't one of the best suspension systems out there at present the McLaren ProActive Chassis Control, featuring Adaptive Damping. To quote "provides much higher stiffness in roll compared to conventional suspension systems, and greater comfort in a straight line".

Possibly the way forward in much simpler implementations. Less compromise than passive systems.


I'm sure we need to open up a new topic.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Surely you agree that any suspension system is still a set a compromises, even if one is of better quality and performance than another.

As to active suspensions, isn't one of the best suspension systems out there at present the McLaren ProActive Chassis Control, featuring Adaptive Damping. To quote "provides much higher stiffness in roll compared to conventional suspension systems, and greater comfort in a straight line".

Possibly the way forward in much simpler implementations. Less compromise than passive systems.


I'm sure we need to open up a new topic.

Yes absolutely. Cost usually being the main one unfortunately.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Do you mean BMW's systems, or across the marques?

There is much more scope with both passive and adaptive, if we know exactly what working envelope we are after. One man's decent ride/handling balance is not necessarily another man's.

It is why the more advanced passive dampers have valving features to widen the working envelope. Extend the comfort window while keeping a chassis tight. As examples, we see it in such dampers as the Koni FSD, or more up market in the Ohlins DFV. A decent passive damper must widen the working envelope to make it more road usable, than the simplest designs with their limitations.

Adaptive also has a wide scope of design and implementation. Dinan's Shockware mapping appears to satisfy many BMW 3/4 series users.

My experience is almost all with BMW but I suspect my comment could well apply equally to other marques!

In saying that I'm certainly not suggesting all adaptive systems are rubbish but I suspect the ones that work best are relatively complex and, because of the associated cost, tend to be found only on quite expensive cars. However, the "cheap" adaptive system on my F31 was frankly a waste of around £500 and it wouldn't surprise me if similarly priced offerings from other manufacturers fall into the same bracket.

For normal road use I'd contend that a well sorted passive system is more than capable of providing a decent blend of handling and ride comfort for most drivers most of the time. As evidence of that the sports suspension offered by the likes of ACS and Birds show what can be achieved with a good passive system on a BMW and they do so without the cost and complexity of the more sophisticated adaptive systems; I daresay the set-up on a McLaren is better but short of a lottery win the cost of one of those is way beyond most of us!

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

As I see it the problem with BMW's adaptive system in the 3/4 series, it is too limited. Not the best implementation of an adaptive suspension. Then as we know, even BMW's passive suspensions are not to many enthusiast's liking. Both standard and M-sport appear compromised.

Back to adaptive, Lorcan makes the case for a 'mid' position. That is where BMW have failed, IMO. Their simple adaptive damper with only one proportional valve, there is no setting best matched to the spring rate, the damping characteristic maps are set to one or the other side of the actual spring rate. Too big a compromise

Other car manufacturers adaptive suspensions also have a 'mid' setting, which gives an adaptive damping map balanced to the springs.

The 'Fx' models, 5-series and upwards also have this mid setting, (in latest models an Adaptive Mode, which overlaps both Comfort/Sport modes), plus two valves per damper, one for compression, one rebound stokes. That makes for a far better system.

We know all suspension systems involve compromises. Perhaps we ought to have a separate topic on what makes either a decent passive or adaptive suspension setup.

I'm not as technical as you as far as auto engineering is concerned, Pete, so happy to bow to your knowledge. As I understand it, adaptive suspension on my F36 is adapting all of the time to the road surface, every fraction of a second or so. The difference that the sport chassis setting makes over Comfort is that it simply limits the adaptive range more, from what I can tell
And the adaptive suspension in my LCI 4 series feels better implemented than it was in my pre-LCI 3 series, for what it's worth
Personal taste plays a role here of course as with tyres, steering feel etc etc

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

I'm not as technical as you as far as auto engineering is concerned, Pete, so happy to bow to your knowledge. As I understand it, adaptive suspension on my F36 is adapting all of the time to the road surface, every fraction of a second or so. The difference that the sport chassis setting makes over Comfort is that it simply limits the adaptive range more, from what I can tell.

Yes you are understanding it correctly. The benefit would come, (my experience with the 5-series), if there was a similar 'mid mode' damper map, more usable on a lot of our UK roads.

[rosstin]

Hi Lorcan where is your test car going to be over the next few weeks? Anywhere near London?

[Lorcan]

Originally Posted by rosstin

Hi Lorcan where is your test car going to be over the next few weeks? Anywhere near London?

Umm...probably not as it's already been to Deutschtech in Milton Keynes which is the nearest dealer to London taking part in the free fitting offer. It will be back with us in Norfolk next week if you fancy a day out.

[g9icy]

Soooo I just got off the phone to Hastings Direct, provider of my car insurance, to ask about how much it would change my premium to alter the suspension, and they declined it outright, saying they wouldn't insure those changes.

Does anyone recommend an insurer that will cover such changes?

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by g9icy

Soooo I just got off the phone to Hastings Direct, provider of my car insurance, to ask about how much it would change my premium to alter the suspension, and they declined it outright, saying they wouldn't insure those changes.

Does anyone recommend an insurer that will cover such changes?

I've had no problem with Admiral regarding several changes including suspension.

I eventually moved to A-Plan Thatcham as Admiral ran out of boxes to list all my mods

[g9icy]

Originally Posted by Watsey

I've had no problem with Admiral regarding several changes including suspension.

I eventually moved to A-Plan Thatcham as Admiral ran out of boxes to list all my mods

A bit of research does suggest Admiral are fairly good for these kinds of mods, I'll investigate.

[johnnybforbacon]

I'm also with Admiral and need to give them a call regarding the suspension upgrade to see what they say.

[g9icy]

Had a chat with Admiral, they're offering £622 which is the cheapest I've found yet.

I should be getting a refund from Hastings too so I may go with this.

[johnnybforbacon]

Originally Posted by g9icy

Had a chat with Admiral, they're offering £622 which is the cheapest I've found yet.

I should be getting a refund from Hastings too so I may go with this.

I'm already with Admiral and pay my insurance normally in one lump. They just said it'll be an admin fee of £19.50 to add it to my policy.

They have the following options with suspension:

"We have the options when suspension on the vehicle is altered

Suspension lowered less then 5cm
Suspension lowered between 5cm and 12.5cm
Suspension other (not lowered)".

The ACS comes under 5cm as it only lowers by 25mm for my model.

[g9icy]

Apologies for bumping my own thread, but does anyone have any experience of how the car feels with just the ACS springs and not the dampers?

I'm having an internal battle over the nearly £2k expense of both the springs and dampers.

[1966-TR4]

Originally Posted by g9icy

Apologies for bumping my own thread, but does anyone have any experience of how the car feels with just the ACS springs and not the dampers?

I'm having an internal battle over the nearly £2k expense of both the springs and dampers.

With Adaptive, it is a big improvement over stock springs. Comfort is a lot less sphincter tightening at speed, and the spring rate feels a better match for Sport than before.

I haven't tried one with non Adaptive dampers.

[sploo]

Originally Posted by g9icy

Apologies for bumping my own thread, but does anyone have any experience of how the car feels with just the ACS springs and not the dampers?

I'm having an internal battle over the nearly £2k expense of both the springs and dampers.

Originally Posted by 1966-TR4

With Adaptive, it is a big improvement over stock springs. Comfort is a lot less sphincter tightening at speed, and the spring rate feels a better match for Sport than before.

I haven't tried one with non Adaptive dampers.

Having the same battle myself (330d on completely stock, non-adaptive, suspension).

I don't like the way the car wallows and rocks on undulating roads; Lorcan indicated I'd need the dampers to sort that. However, I also find the nose (especially the outside corner) tends to "dip" into corners; whereas the wife's Mini Cooper feels much flatter on corner entry.

If just the springs would help that dipping problem, and didn't make the wallowing/rocking too much worse, then I'd probably go for it. Probably can't stretch to the full spring + dampers at the moment.

[pdk42]

Originally Posted by g9icy

Apologies for bumping my own thread, but does anyone have any experience of how the car feels with just the ACS springs and not the dampers?

I'm having an internal battle over the nearly £2k expense of both the springs and dampers.

I've had springs only on passive dampers on my f31 335i for the past few years. I've done about 40k miles on them. Springs only is definitely a worthwhile upgrade (over MSport which is what I had before). However, it had to be said that the damping still isn't right. This is apparent when the road surface gets tricky (undulations, ruts) and you can feel the tyres losing grip where they shouldn't be. There's also a bit too much bouncing at speed at times. I keep planning to add the dampers, but it's a big outlay. I might still do it before the current offer ends.

[sploo]

Originally Posted by pdk42

I've had springs only on passive dampers on my f31 335i for the past few years. I've done about 40k miles on them. Springs only is definitely a worthwhile upgrade (over MSport which is what I had before). However, it had to be said that the damping still isn't right. This is apparent when the road surface gets tricky (undulations, ruts) and you can feel the tyres losing grip where they shouldn't be. There's also a bit too much bouncing at speed at times. I keep planning to add the dampers, but it's a big outlay. I might still do it before the current offer ends.

That's exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for - thanks. Totally agree on the undulating surface problem.

How does the MSport suspension compare to the standard? I've heard varying opinions, from good, to just that it's overly hard (I'm wondering how standard-to-AC would compare to MSport-to-AC).

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by sploo

That's exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for - thanks. Totally agree on the undulating surface problem.

How does the MSport suspension compare to the standard? I've heard varying opinions, from good, to just that it's overly hard (I'm wondering how standard-to-AC would compare to MSport-to-AC).

I'd been contemplating ACS springs for my 4GC M Sport with adaptive suspension as I wanted to improve the suspension and steering feel. I've decided against it however having read around a bit as there appears to be a consensus that to really benefit from an upgrade, you need to change springs and dampers so that they're well matched. I don't want to spend that much ££, tbh, and really don't want to go down the springs only route to find that the improvement is marginal

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by sploo

I don't like the way the car wallows and rocks on undulating roads; Lorcan indicated I'd need the dampers to sort that. However, I also find the nose (especially the outside corner) tends to "dip" into corners; whereas the wife's Mini Cooper feels much flatter on corner entry.

If just the springs would help that dipping problem, and didn't make the wallowing/rocking too much worse, then I'd probably go for it. Probably can't stretch to the full spring + dampers at the moment.

IMO, springs are only ever part of any solution to reduce wallow and rocking.

I used to follow the VW scene a few years back, when we were running more VW models in the family,. A lot of models had the same issues, 'wallow' being a common problem. Main improvement was from better damping. Springs alone can simply move the problem, to say more rock and jitter. Nothing worse than stiff springs which are underdamped, IMO.