[leeadam]

Originally Posted by DriveS

A bit more than I expected, but still an expensive mod for 16bhp. How much? £700?

I would have thought it will make more difference in the warmer weather too.

that rolling road done on a 26 degree heat day, higher figure would show done on cold day.

[Soul_Glo]

Originally Posted by leeadam

well to me as i had first map with him, cost under 700 quid inc map. update and fitting

Supply and fit of the wagner? Plus update to map? That's pretty good.

[Hooded]

Originally Posted by leeadam

oh believe me you notice it. yes it held power before with 1st map, but much more agressive now. if you think not noticeable then dont go for an IC, very different to drive than look at a graph online.

To be fair your car seems to be making around 45lbft (60nm) more torque at 3000rpm with the latest map and new intercooler, so it's going to be noticeable

The point I was making on my previous post was that the torque still drops off at the same point as before and doesn't hold it for any longer ... but yeah you've gained a decent amount of torque below 3500rpm since the intercooler and revised map which is what your noticing more than the 16bhp max power increase

[Ajs_435d]

Not doubt it'll help, the issue here is its not really a good test because non of the correction factors are presented nor is temp nor pressure and these can massively reduce or increase power so parameters are not the same. IATS are pretty good stock ic wise not much higher than ambient, so to increase power by an intercooler it's pressure drop or IATS reductions/intercooler design in terms of flow end tanks etc etc, pressure will give gains for obvious reasons and lower IATS will be a small extent. Generally if you see lower IATS and charge temp you can increase fueling because your egts will be lower. In a diesel you always get a high percentage of power yielded from fueling alone and boost to a much smaller extent and timing to an even smaller extent (as that's often left alone).

It's difficult to obviously compare and do a before and after on the same day, I genuinely believe if it was on the same day the increases would be far less. Don't get diesel tuning mixed up with petrol tuning they are different to an extent!.

I'm not saying it's shit or having a dig rather than saying it's rubbish, I'm explaining why those figures are not purely down to the intercooler and my experience and why it's on the high side.

[leeadam]

Originally Posted by Ajs_435d

Not doubt it'll help, the issue here is its not really a good test because non of the correction factors are presented nor is temp nor pressure and these can massively reduce or increase power so parameters are not the same. IATS are pretty good stock ic wise not much higher than ambient, so to increase power by an intercooler it's pressure drop or IATS reductions/intercooler design in terms of flow end tanks etc etc, pressure will give gains for obvious reasons and lower IATS will be a small extent. Generally if you see lower IATS and charge temp you can increase fueling because your egts will be lower. In a diesel you always get a high percentage of power yielded from fueling alone and boost to a much smaller extent and timing to an even smaller extent (as that's often left alone).

It's difficult to obviously compare and do a before and after on the same day, I genuinely believe if it was on the same day the increases would be far less. Don't get diesel tuning mixed up with petrol tuning they are different to an extent!.

I'm not saying it's shit or having a dig rather than saying it's rubbish, I'm explaining why those figures are not purely down to the intercooler and my experience and why it's on the high side.

blimey you read too many forums lol. Ok ill let you tell the tuner his job then and say guy online says he has some tips for you...jeezzz aways one on a forum that waffles on zzz, im sorry but YES it is down to intercooler and yes down to tweaked map as clearly running way more torque and bhp than before IC FACT, plus many tuners recommend the IC for stage two, so u need to let them all know they are in the wrong..,read into all the science you want but its FACT, ive been tuning my cars petrol and diesel german and jap since 1989 thanks so i do know a few things . If you think its a crap result getting 410 bhp from a car normally running 310 then i apologise. and bow to your great wisdom.

[chris-c]

I think he was simply saying the gains for a diesel by upgrading the IC were less than if you did the same on a diesel and doing a before/after on the same day in the same conditions you might have seen a lower jump.

I dont think he said anywhere your gains were not significant but on the other hand I'm sure I've seen other members on here running (near to) 400bhp on a stock IC. You might have more hidden in there!

The 335 / 435 with xdrive coupled with 400bhp = VERY VERY potent. The bog standard 335D shifts like you've stood on a cats tail so I'd imagine this would be oodles of fun.

[DriveS]

I guess the main thing is you can feel a significant difference in performance and you are enjoying it. The numbers are a guide.

Do you know how much increase is down to the IC alone and how much to the map tweak? Or was it a case of the map was at its limits without the IC and could only be tweaked to take advantage of improved airflow that the IC gives? (I am assuming it does)

[Ajs_435d]

Originally Posted by chris-c

I think he was simply saying the gains for a diesel by upgrading the IC were less than if you did the same on a diesel and doing a before/after on the same day in the same conditions you might have seen a lower jump.

I dont think he said anywhere your gains were not significant but on the other hand I'm sure I've seen other members on here running (near to) 400bhp on a stock IC. You might have more hidden in there!

The 335 / 435 with xdrive coupled with 400bhp = VERY VERY potent. The bog standard 335D shifts like you've stood on a cats tail so I'd imagine this would be oodles of fun.

Exactly. That's it really.

[Ajs_435d]

Originally Posted by leeadam

blimey you read too many forums lol. Ok ill let you tell the tuner his job then and say guy online says he has some tips for you...jeezzz aways one on a forum that waffles on zzz, im sorry but YES it is down to intercooler and yes down to tweaked map as clearly running way more torque and bhp than before IC FACT, plus many tuners recommend the IC for stage two, so u need to let them all know they are in the wrong..,read into all the science you want but its FACT, ive been tuning my cars petrol and diesel german and jap since 1989 thanks so i do know a few things . If you think its a crap result getting 410 bhp from a car normally running 310 then i apologise. and bow to your great wisdom.

Wow just brilliant I think I your missing the point here, I'm not saying your tuner is bad nor done a crap or power output poor but I didn't expect you to given your poor reply.

I had to laugh here as a few people know me on here....

I don't read forums I have a business that... Ta Dah tunes cars and I write maps from scratch not someone who buys maps flashes them and has no idea about their contents/dabbles and changes multipliers. A tuner will always generally recommend something because guess what surprise surprise... You get commission and additional income. What's the science I'm intrigued explain to me?

What's your experience in writing maps, flow testing, injector testing and intercooler testing? I'm wiling to bet virtually all none. I never said it was poor getting 410 from a 310 car? I also work for a car manufacturer.

You obviously took great offence whilst you have no experience or technical comments to support anything you say. I never said it wouldn't improve things I'm saying I'm wiling to bet you won't get 16bhp purely from an intercooler because the tests dyno are flawed somewhat.

May next time you'll think before you a) jump to conclusions b) argue a point with no real merit other than saying I'm a dabbler/tinkerer c) not back it up with any technical knowledge and most importantly d) don't take great offence ffs lol e) have sensible discussions and stop jump to conclusions.

Come on mate I like you've tried it and tried to do a before and after but fuck me lol. Never said it was bad or wouldn't improve the car, it's the delta I don't believe.

[OneExtra]

Have you mapped your own car?

[DriveS]

Originally Posted by Ajs_435d

Wow just brilliant I think I your missing the point here, I'm not saying your tuner is bad nor done a crap or power output poor but I didn't expect you to given your poor reply.

I had to laugh here as a few people know me on here....

I don't read forums I have a business that... Ta Dah tunes cars and I write maps from scratch not someone who buys maps flashes them and has no idea about their contents/dabbles and changes multipliers. A tuner will always generally recommend something because guess what surprise surprise... You get commission and additional income. What's the science I'm intrigued explain to me?

What's your experience in writing maps, flow testing, injector testing and intercooler testing? I'm wiling to bet virtually all none. I never said it was poor getting 410 from a 310 car? I also work for a car manufacturer.

You obviously took great offence whilst you have no experience or technical comments to support anything you say. I never said it wouldn't improve things I'm saying I'm wiling to bet you won't get 16bhp purely from an intercooler because the tests dyno are flawed somewhat.

May next time you'll think before you a) jump to conclusions b) argue a point with no real merit other than saying I'm a dabbler/tinkerer c) not back it up with any technical knowledge and most importantly d) don't take great offence ffs lol e) have sensible discussions and stop jump to conclusions.

Come on mate I like you've tried it and tried to do a before and after but fuck me lol. Never said it was bad or wouldn't improve the car, it's the delta I don't believe.

Reading between the lines here... You are saying that from your experience in real life testing, that an an uprated IC on the x35d engine provides little improvement in airflow or charge cooling to give a significant difference in power output?

[Techno 9000]

Hey, AJS_435d

"I'm wiling to bet you won't get 16bhp purely from an intercooler"


That's not what has been presented here...

So, do you believe that circa 4% power increase over a remap alone, from a larger inter-cooler and an appropriately tweaked map isn't possible?

If so, what is the limitation to flow in the 435 engine?

[DriveS]

Originally Posted by Techno 9000

Hey, AJS_435d



If so, what is the limitation to flow in the 435 engine?

My understanding is the main limiter is the DPF, then you get a bit more with an uprated IC. This is stage II, i believe, but that only gets you to cira 430bhp, after that is a different turbo and I dont know of anyone that has done that, or even wants to do it!

[Ajs_435d]

Originally Posted by DriveS

Reading between the lines here... You are saying that from your experience in real life testing, that an an uprated IC on the x35d engine provides little improvement in airflow or charge cooling to give a significant difference in power output?

Yes I did on the same day same dyno and I seen around 4-5 bhp right at the very top end with a tweaked map some of that contributed in theory contributed to dyno tolerances.

One could look at maf/map sensor readings but map needs tweaked as boost solenoid etc should meet/adjust to requested boost.

[Ajs_435d]

Originally Posted by Techno 9000

Hey, AJS_435d

"I'm wiling to bet you won't get 16bhp purely from an intercooler"


That's not what has been presented here...

So, do you believe that circa 4% power increase over a remap alone, from a larger inter-cooler and an appropriately tweaked map isn't possible?

If so, what is the limitation to flow in the 435 engine?

Hi,
I don't think your understanding what I've put above...

If you look up corrections factors (temp, pressure etc) on dynos and how they effect power output you'll see why I say it's not a true figure and you'll understand.

A simpler analogy is weighing yourself on one scales then next day weighing yourself on a completely different scales.

On face of its 4 percent but it's not true.

Thanks

[Ajs_435d]

Originally Posted by DriveS

My understanding is the main limiter is the DPF, then you get a bit more with an uprated IC. This is stage II, i believe, but that only gets you to cira 430bhp, after that is a different turbo and I dont know of anyone that has done that, or even wants to do it!

On the face of it I believe so but I haven't seen or heard done anything on f series so can't really comment, I believe the f series are less restrictive.

[Ajs_435d]

Originally Posted by OneExtra

Have you mapped your own car?

I along with one company used my car as one of the first they did.

[Ajs_435d]

Whilst my intention was never to offend the op it was purely helping people not waste money, not think they will get crazy gains and understand figures. It's something you'd add if you were tracking or squeezing every last bit of power out of it or 'probably' doing dpf removal , I feel some people (not all) are not readings some of the basics, so I'm fighting a loosing battle - I'm out.

[leeadam]

i had a chat with couple of well known tuners i use ,and this post made them giggle suggesting intercooler makes no difference in gaining extra power. My results must be mythical. but anyway original post just to show others thinking of next stage up from simple map IS go for IC and map to suit, very pleased with the output and drive noticeably faster. Its not wasting money at all and as any tuner knows its the next step before hybrid turbos. most normal mapped 335/435d put out 365bhp to maybe 390 tops. so go for it if your on the fence.

[leeadam]

Originally Posted by DriveS

My understanding is the main limiter is the DPF, then you get a bit more with an uprated IC. This is stage II, i believe, but that only gets you to cira 430bhp, after that is a different turbo and I dont know of anyone that has done that, or even wants to do it!

your kinda correct and yes Dave Black has a lovely 335d estate with hybrid turbos and larger intercooler was a must, as specced by unicorn tuners and mapped by them he has kept DPF and ran a 430bhp without meth and 451 bhp with meth. But an IC is integral to gaining more power after basic map, then its bigger hybrid turbos.

[CptJackSparra]

Originally Posted by DriveS

My understanding is the main limiter is the DPF, then you get a bit more with an uprated IC. This is stage II, i believe, but that only gets you to cira 430bhp, after that is a different turbo and I dont know of anyone that has done that, or even wants to do it!

I would agree regarding the DPF being a significant leap with IC upgrade. I started out with a stage 2 map and DPF removal (with K&N high flow filter) producing initially 435bhp, this was mental fast! However 3 days later in 21 degrees of heat , the car felt terrible, almost standard again if that! I honestly thought something had gone wrong. The tuner did tell me I'd need an IC upgrade when going for the DPF removal with the amount it was pushing out, but I thought it was just sales patter. I went back and got the Wagner EVO2 IC, WHAT A DIFFERENCE! Reliable power all the time no matter what the outside temperature, and in cooler weather an improvement in midrange and top rev-range again!

[Hooded]

Originally Posted by CptJackSparra

I would agree regarding the DPF being a significant leap with IC upgrade. I started out with a stage 2 map and DPF removal (with K&N high flow filter) producing initially 435bhp, this was mental fast! However 3 days later in 21 degrees of heat , the car felt terrible, almost standard again if that! I honestly thought something had gone wrong. The tuner did tell me I'd need an IC upgrade when going for the DPF removal with the amount it was pushing out, but I thought it was just sales patter. I went back and got the Wagner EVO2 IC, WHAT A DIFFERENCE! Reliable power all the time no matter what the outside temperature, and in cooler weather an improvement in midrange and top rev-range again!

On this video from Evolve they appear to get an increase of 19bhp from upgrading the IC on a stage 1 remapped 435d