[Insane435]

these are interesting. Its not that bad of an install, just annoying on xdrive when you have to remove the hub carrier bolt. The boot grease gets everywhere...

[skier_du]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

Hi Skier_du & Andino,

Great reviews. Looks like both of you track your cars. I have lots of questions!
Just road use, do these VAC LCA monoballs ever annoy you?
Which add more NVH, VAC LCA monoballs, or your poly UCA bushes (& by extension, VAC UCA bushes)?
IYHO, would VAC monoballs in both LCA & UCA be too much NVH for a road car?
Also, are the M3/M4 LCA arms monoballs?

TIA! Murf

Hi Skier_du & Andino,
Hey Murf! Love tracking this car!
They don't annoy me at all. They helped me fall even more in love with this car. If I had brick wall runflats they most likely would. I don't hear more noise than before. Even my wife didn't notice a difference. They just make me more connected to the road. The vagueness that's was there before is pretty much gone now. Is you're the sort of person who enjoys flying down the road on a cloud, then this is not for you. But if you like bring connected to your car, these are for you.
I've only driven on the car with both stock tension struts and lca's, then poly bushings on both at the same time. Then these mono-balls at the same time. You could do one without the other, but to me, the baba of the system would be off.
If I had to say, technically the mono-balls add more NVH than the poly bushings. But not my much. Also almost all of that is from the feel through the steering wheel of what's actually going on with the front wheels. Of course results will vary depending on suspension setup and tire choice (e.g. smaller sidewalks will have more harshness inherently).
The M3/m4 lca arms are monoballs. Not the tensions arms. The VAC monoballs themselves are similar to what's in the M3/m4 arms. My thoughts on that are if one was to get the M3/m4 arms, they would still want to get the monoballs for the tensions arms (VAC does though too). Which would cost more than just replacing your existing arms with the VAC ones. Second is the M3/m4 arms push the hub further out, meaning they do give you a little more camber, but if you're a performance person, especially someone who tracks their car, you'll get camber plates anyway, making the increase in camber a moot point. But further is reducing the clearance for tires between the hub and fender. So this will reduce the width of tires you can fit in the front. Third, if you're xDrive the M3/m4 arms are a no-go anyway.
I hope this helps.

[skier_du]

Originally Posted by Insane435

these are interesting. Its not that bad of an install, just annoying on xdrive when you have to remove the hub carrier bolt. The boot grease gets everywhere...

Absolutely! Those bolts are no joke!!

[andino]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

Hi Skier_du & Andino,

Great reviews. Looks like both of you track your cars. I have lots of questions!
Just road use, do these VAC LCA monoballs ever annoy you?
Which add more NVH, VAC LCA monoballs, or your poly UCA bushes (& by extension, VAC UCA bushes)?
IYHO, would VAC monoballs in both LCA & UCA be too much NVH for a road car?
Also, are the M3/M4 LCA arms monoballs?

TIA! Murf

I didn't notice a major difference in noise when going to VACs LCA monoball. Granted I already had millway camber plates which increased NVH significantly over stock. The added noise from the LCA monoball was unnoticed by me. I also run a KMAC monoball in my tension strut. Together, I think there's a slight increase in noise but nothing major. There more vibration and harshness from stiffening the front end more but I don't think it's a bad thing. It makes the car more engaging.

[Littlebear]

Thanks Folks,

I've had the M3/4 LCAs in, then out, then in again, and noticed no real increase in NVH. I also love bilstien shocks.
I predict these are going into my 'dirty back road' machine (which is now an F30!) soon!

Murf

[skier_du]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

Thanks Folks,

I've had the M3/4 LCAs in, then out, then in again, and noticed no real increase in NVH. I also love bilstien shocks.
I predict these are going into my 'dirty back road' machine soon!

Murf

Haha Gotta love the dirty cars!

[Jvac]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

Thanks Folks,

I've had the M3/4 LCAs in, then out, then in again, and noticed no real increase in NVH. I also love bilstien shocks.
I predict these are going into my 'dirty back road' machine (which is now an F30!) soon!

Murf

I'm curious, why did you take the LCAs out and then put them back in again? Just to compare/contrast with stock? If no added nvh, then why go to the trouble of removing? I recall another forum member saying that he found the car to be unstable at speed so he ended up removing them. Wondering if you have any feedback in that regard.
Thanks

[Littlebear]

Hi Jvac,

Two things influenced me. This is my first car with electric steering. I do not like it.
I put in the M3/4 LCAs very soon after getting the car (the car understeers, and has no front camber). I noticed my steering not centering well, sticking a bit, & had no feel. So I wondered if the changed geometry with the M3/4 LCAs contributed.
I also don't particularly like the tiny little bit of thread left inserted on the tierods when the M3/4 LCAs are in. I don't know if we even get 1/2 inch of thread used. My alignment guy said it's OK, but it still creeps me out.
So I put the stock LCAs back in, and I still had bad centering action & no feel from the steering. So I put the M3/4 LCAs back in, to at least get a little less understeer, etc.
I would love to get the correction hubs, Meyle or VAC bushes in the LCA & UCA, & go back to my stock LCA arms, but that will cost....

Murf

[Jvac]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

Hi Jvac,

Two things influenced me. This is my first car with electric steering. I do not like it.
I put in the M3/4 LCAs very soon after getting the car (the car understeers, and has no front camber). I noticed my steering not centering well, sticking a bit, & had no feel. So I wondered if the changed geometry with the M3/4 LCAs contributed.
I also don't particularly like the tiny little bit of thread left inserted on the tierods when the M3/4 LCAs are in. I don't know if we even get 1/2 inch of thread used. My alignment guy said it's OK, but it still creeps me out.
So I put the stock LCAs back in, and I still had bad centering action & no feel from the steering. So I put the M3/4 LCAs back in, to at least get a little less understeer, etc.
I would love to get the correction hubs, Meyle or VAC bushes in the LCA & UCA, & go back to my stock LCA arms, but that will cost....

Murf

Thanks for the response. I hadn't heard that the bolts don't thread on as much yet, so that's good to know. I feel the same way after installing a front strut brace. The mounting plates are about 5mm thick so the strut bolts don't thread in to the top mounts as much as before. It seems ok but I'd feel better about the whole thing if I could find some longer bolts...
Anyway I have similar ideas to yours regarding front camber, but it does pain me to have to put up so much money for a measly degree of camber between the correction hubs and the m3 LCAs combined . And I'm not ready to put camber plates on a car with 2 years left on factory warranty. From reading around here it sounds like the bushing upgrade for the tension strut does more to improve the steering feel/accuracy so I'll probably try that first. Waffling back and forth between the Turner monoball and the meyle hd arm with the solid rubber at the moment.

[skier_du]

Originally Posted by Jvac

Thanks for the response. I hadn't heard that the bolts don't thread on as much yet, so that's good to know. I feel the same way after installing a front strut brace. The mounting plates are about 5mm thick so the strut bolts don't thread in to the top mounts as much as before. It seems ok but I'd feel better about the whole thing if I could find some longer bolts...
Anyway I have similar ideas to yours regarding front camber, but it does pain me to have to put up so much money for a measly degree of camber between the correction hubs and the m3 LCAs combined . And I'm not ready to put camber plates on a car with 2 years left on factory warranty. From reading around here it sounds like the bushing upgrade for the tension strut does more to improve the steering feel/accuracy so I'll probably try that first. Waffling back and forth between the Turner monoball and the meyle hd arm with the solid rubber at the moment.

Reach out to VAC and talk to Tony about your concerns. He may be able to figure something out for you. Maybe a full, adjustable control arm or something similar could be a more feasible option to get your camber without adding camber plates, as long as you're rwd. We talked about making adjustable bushings or control arms. If someone wants them, he'll work on it.

[ktw]

Any updates on peoples' experiences with the VAC LCA and/or TS?

skier_du With the effectively shorter TS due to centered bolt hole compared to OE, how much clearance is there from tire to wheel well? (And for what size tires?) I know you have caster adjustable camber plates which will also factor in. For a while I had KMAC adjustable TS bushings installed and 235/40R19 tires would just barely rub one small spot at partial steering lock (probably ~1/2 turn at the steering wheel). Camber was ~7.7 degrees, but I didn't record where the TS bushing bolt hole was, so I'm not sure whether the centered hole would have the same result. Thanks!

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by ktw

Any updates on peoples' experiences with the VAC LCA and/or TS?

skier_du With the effectively shorter TS due to centered bolt hole compared to OE, how much clearance is there from tire to wheel well? (And for what size tires?) I know you have caster adjustable camber plates which will also factor in. For a while I had KMAC adjustable TS bushings installed and 235/40R19 tires would just barely rub one small spot at partial steering lock (probably ~1/2 turn at the steering wheel). Camber was ~7.7 degrees, but I didn't record where the TS bushing bolt hole was, so I'm not sure whether the centered hole would have the same result. Thanks!

You should be able to adjust the caster with the KMAC to less than stock too. That didn't work for you? Your larger than OE diameter tires certainly aren't helping.

[andino]

Originally Posted by ktw

Any updates on peoples' experiences with the VAC LCA and/or TS?

skier_du With the effectively shorter TS due to centered bolt hole compared to OE, how much clearance is there from tire to wheel well? (And for what size tires?) I know you have caster adjustable camber plates which will also factor in. For a while I had KMAC adjustable TS bushings installed and 235/40R19 tires would just barely rub one small spot at partial steering lock (probably ~1/2 turn at the steering wheel). Camber was ~7.7 degrees, but I didn't record where the TS bushing bolt hole was, so I'm not sure whether the centered hole would have the same result. Thanks!

My LCA monoball is holding up well. Its a little bit noisier than the superpro poly bushings I had before but not so bad I want to remove them. I have millway camber mounts too so that transfers a lot more noise into the cabin than a stock top hat would.

[ktw]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

You should be able to adjust the caster with the KMAC to less than stock too. That didn't work for you? Your larger than OE diameter tires certainly aren't helping.

Oh, the rubbing wasn't why I took them off. One of the arms walked off the bushing. When I discussed with KMAC he said he was going to revise the part to increase the OD slightly, but I decided to switch to poly for the time being at least. I certainly would have adjusted them to reduce caster slightly if I kept them on.

[ktw]

Andino, good to hear all is well so far!

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by ktw

Oh, the rubbing wasn't why I took them off. One of the arms walked off the bushing. When I discussed with KMAC he said he was going to revise the part to increase the OD slightly, but I decided to switch to poly for the time being at least. I certainly would have adjusted them to reduce caster slightly if I kept them on.

Did you measure the OD of the monoball by chance? Was the difference between it and the arm big enough that loctite green line wouldn't work?

[ktw]

The bushing OD was 69.8 mm. Should have been 70.3 according to KMAC, but I don't have a measurement from the OE bushings to confirm. Perhaps loctite on the initial installation would have been sufficient. It was noticeably easier to press in than the OE bushings were to press out, but still required a hydraulic press. After the arm walked the bushing could pretty much be pushed through by hand, but the bushing OD or arm ID may have been deformed by then.

I should say, KMAC was very willing to solve any issues or refund the purchase. I think he does make some great products, and I particularly appreciate that he fills in a lot of niche products that bigger brands don't cover (xDrive TS bushings being a prime example).

[skier_du]

Originally Posted by ktw

Any updates on peoples' experiences with the VAC LCA and/or TS?

skier_du With the effectively shorter TS due to centered bolt hole compared to OE, how much clearance is there from tire to wheel well? (And for what size tires?) I know you have caster adjustable camber plates which will also factor in. For a while I had KMAC adjustable TS bushings installed and 235/40R19 tires would just barely rub one small spot at partial steering lock (probably ~1/2 turn at the steering wheel). Camber was ~7.7 degrees, but I didn't record where the TS bushing bolt hole was, so I'm not sure whether the centered hole would have the same result. Thanks!

I was actually thinking of an update so this works. I can say I still love the VAC mono-balls! I've taken multiple, several hundred mile trips, driven in NYC, on the tracks and all over pothole city called New Jersey. The car behaves much more predictably everywhere. I've noticed less steering correction necessary while cruising. Inputs are instant since I no longer have to wait for soft bushings to load up before the car starts to respond. The only delay is in the tires now. The dead-ish feeling in the center is gone. There is definitely more feedback through the steering wheel, but never annoying for me. It's what I want in a performance sedan. Also my alignment held better than previous, going over big potholes. Much better than with the factory bushings or poly bushings. As a matter of fact it barely budged from my track alignment after several months and thousands of miles. And I definitely hit some major, bone jarring potholes. Anyone driving in the area can attest to the type of car swallowing holes I'm talking about.
Regarding the caster, it hasn't been an issue. I believe the original bushings were centered, not offset. I just set both Ground Control plates to be centered and left it there. I'm currently running smaller track tires at 245/40 18 instead of three 255/40 18 I usually run because there's a lot more options in that size. Although on the street I run factory size. Not sure what the clearance is, but there's plenty, even if I was rubbing a taller tire. I don't have any rubbing with a 30 offset on my track wheels. On my street setup I have the style 400 in 18 with stock size tires and 15 mm spacers with no rubbing, even lock to lock.

[skier_du]

Originally Posted by ktw

The bushing OD was 69.8 mm. Should have been 70.3 according to KMAC, but I don't have a measurement from the OE bushings to confirm. Perhaps loctite on the initial installation would have been sufficient. It was noticeably easier to press in than the OE bushings were to press out, but still required a hydraulic press. After the arm walked the bushing could pretty much be pushed through by hand, but the bushing OD or arm ID may have been deformed by then.

I should say, KMAC was very willing to solve any issues or refund the purchase. I think he does make some great products, and I particularly appreciate that he fills in a lot of niche products that bigger brands don't cover (xDrive TS bushings being a prime example).

This can be an issue. I know Tony accounted for this when he designed the bushings. The sleeves he presses in won't move once they're in. I don't know the specs, but they're solidly in. To be extra sure the TS bushings have a cap so they won't move under race conditions. My LCA bushings are just pressed in and haven't budged. But they are the prototypes. He put a robust snap ring after mine. So all of them will have that design going forward.

[eleven11]

Good stuff.

I have an F31 with xDrive, so I'm excited to see this product being developed. I have limited experience/knowledge with the nuances of these parts, but I'd like to tighten up my wheel-to-wheel response lag. For a non-tracked daily driver, what's the downside when switching to these (maintenance, etc.)? If it matters, I'm dropped on KW DDC coilovers. Thanks!

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by skier_du

I believe the original bushings were centered, not offset.

The OE tension strut bushings' bolt hole is absolutely offset from the center of the bushing. It's not a huge offset, but it's there. I've measured it myself.

[ktw]

Thanks for all the info skier_du! Sounds like a solid product from VAC.