[justinnum1]

Originally Posted by JoeyO

If Audi is just a repackaged Volkswagen, then BMW is a repackaged Mini because I read somewhere that BMW and Mini will soon be sharing the same platforms for some new front wheel drives models.

I don't knock Audi for having the VW relationship. If you're fresh out of college, have your first job, still paying your student loans, and saving for a downpayment for your first house, which car would you buy new? You can't say BMW because most young people in that situation can't afford a brand new BMW. Are you going to buy a brand new Toyota Corola? I know my friends would laugh at me if I drove one. Volkswagen is the logical choice in my mind, particularly if you have a favoritism towards European cars. A used BMW isn't practical because while it may be cheap to purchase at first, the out-of-warranty costs would kill your wallet in the long run. So the only cheap brand new car with a factory warranty that I would buy fresh out of college is a VW.

Then when that person earns more money in life, it's a natural progression to move up to an Audi, because they've already been VW owners. It makes sense to me.

thats like me saying VW is a repackaged lamborghini, sounds pretty crazy....

[HoustonEaDo]

Originally Posted by sr5959

Completely disagree with this, I think the F30 design is very different from the E90.

There was a post on here a couple months ago when the F30 came out that had it next to the "old" 3 series -- people on this forum were arguing about which was which....if people on this BMW forum can't tell the difference....

[The X Men]

Originally Posted by micknugget

Read some Lexus reviews for their lower end stuff and they are usually called glorified Toyotas. And it appears that several other posters agree with me.

Oh, and Mercedes and BMW don't want to make $15,000 cars because they want to be known only as prestigious and high end. and I hope you aren't talking about a stripped Jetta because there are a lot of other cars i and the rest of the world would rather have for $15k.

In your past post, you said Lexus doesnt have the 2nd tier perception, quote:
"It's the relationship with VW that gives them a 2nd tier perception compared to BMW, Mercedes, Lexus. It shouldn't matter but it's the perception that I have seen and heard. "
So which is it, make up your mind.
Its not that Mercedes and BMW doesnt want to make low price cars, its just that they dont have the know how.
So which $15000 mid size sedan would you rather have than the Jetta? A Corolla, or maybe a Hyundai Accent?

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by The X Men

Its not that Mercedes and BMW doesnt want to make low price cars, its just that they dont have the know how.
So which $15000 mid size sedan would you rather have than the Jetta? A Corolla, or maybe a Hyundai Accent?

Really? The A-Class, B-Class, base MINI and F20 all indicate that MB and BMW both know a thing or two about cheaper cars. Just because it doesn't exist in the US doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Also, I can't imagine anyone wanting the current non GLI Jetta. What a turd. The Civic, Focus and Mazda 3 would all be hugely better than a Jetta.

[micknugget]

Originally Posted by The X Men

In your past post, you said Lexus doesnt have the 2nd tier perception, quote:
"It's the relationship with VW that gives them a 2nd tier perception compared to BMW, Mercedes, Lexus. It shouldn't matter but it's the perception that I have seen and heard. "
So which is it, make up your mind.
Its not that Mercedes and BMW doesnt want to make low price cars, its just that they dont have the know how.
So which $15000 mid size sedan would you rather have than the Jetta? A Corolla, or maybe a Hyundai Accent?

As far as I am concerned and in my circles, Lexus isn't 2nd tier BUT as I stated, several reviews from various auto mags bring up the issue and the posts on this board second that. The difference is my opinion versus the apparent general opinion.

As for cars that I would rather have for around $15k? A Mazda 3, a Honda Civic, a Kia Forte, Hyundai Elantra, Subaru Impreza, Ford Focus, etc. etc. etc. It's all personal preference.

[sr5959]

Originally Posted by MERCSUk153

If you cut off a little bit of the front and the bumper part of the back and then look at the rest of the car you telling me these two cars are nor more or less identical. Obviously there are some differences like the sculpted bottom of the doors but aside from that not much.

Funny story about this: so far I've had my F30 for 2 months and only spotted one other on the roads in Seattle, but my girlfriend kept telling me 'I saw one today, I followed one for 5 miles the other day, etc..' So I asked her to take a pic next time she see's one, and last night she sent me a pic of an E90!!! 😊

So I guess if you are not that into cars or not really obsessed with design like I bet most of us here are they do look similar...

[The X Men]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Really? The A-Class, B-Class, base MINI and F20 all indicate that MB and BMW both know a thing or two about cheaper cars. Just because it doesn't exist in the US doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Also, I can't imagine anyone wanting the current non GLI Jetta. What a turd. The Civic, Focus and Mazda 3 would all be hugely better than a Jetta.

The A-Class, B-Class, MINI are not mid size sedans the last time I check.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by The X Men

The A-Class, B-Class, MINI are not mid size sedans the last time I check.

Because most of the world doesn't want a cheap, three box car. You only said that BMW and MB didn't know how to build cheap cars, which I pointed out simply isn't the case. Just because they don't sell cheap cars pitched solely to the relatively small US market doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing in that realm.

VW makes much cheaper cars than the Jetta, the Lupo and Fox for example and uses SEAT and Skoda to effectively move further down market than VW's ROW image.

[Casey 5]

With respect to my comment on the VW Group supply chain....someone responded that because Audi is part of the VW Supply chain it pulls the Audi brand down......really?

Porsche + Lambo are also part of the VW Group supply chain.

Also Rolls Royce is part of the BMW supply chain.

Being a part of the VW Group Supply chain does not pull down the brand of Audi, Porsche or Lamborghini.

It gives them ACCESS to parts at LESS cost.

What can hurt a brand is poor design, poor manufacturing quality, or putting cheaper materials into your luxury brand that are shared with the entry brand.

To this I say....have you gotten into a driven an R8, S5 vert., S4 or Porsche 911, new Boxster S?

When you did....did you think...Ah yes...Jetta?

I think not.

[micknugget]

Originally Posted by micknugget

I don't think that it's bad publicity. I think that it's a few things.
1) It's the relationship with VW that gives them a 2nd tier perception compared to BMW, Mercedes, Lexus. It shouldn't matter but it's the perception that I have seen and heard.
2) Audi (and VW) had some pretty bad reliability issues a few years back and it is pretty well known. Audi has greatly increased their reliability but it will take a little while to recover.
3) Their designs (on their higher volume cars) are just not as sexy as BMW or mercedes. The mid-90s A4 was very plain and IMO ugly. The recent A4 is much nicer but still looks to maintstream (and too much like a Jetta).

Ok, since everyone keeps misquoting me without actually posting the quote....look above

I didn't say anything about the supply chain. I didn't call Audi a 2nd tier company. I did discuss that a lot of people I know perceive Audi as less prestigious that other luxury brands due to: Their well known association with VW.......their reliability issues 5-10 years ago.....and that the A4/S4 looks very similar to a Jetta (although VW likely copied the Audi). These are all facts. Hell, the VW and Audi parts have both logos stamped on them so it's obvioulsy not a secret. It's great business economically. It just has its upsides and downsides.

Please respond to posts only after you have read them and don't say "someone responded....and then make things up."

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by MERCSUk153

I had one beside me and I didn't think anything of it until when I passed the car and then I noticed the front grille and lights then I knew it was a F30. The side profile unless you really look at it you won't notice the difference when both cars are passing each other. Kind of the same for the rear until you look at the lights. Both the E90 and the F30 have more or less the same general shape imo. When you look in detail though I would say the F30 overall design is a refinement of the E90 exception would be the hoodline though.

Sorry, but you keep saying things like this as if it's unusual. Aside from the front and rear clips and change in overall size, I still have to really concentrate on telling a B5, from a B6 from a B7 to a B8, even though I've owned three different Audii from two generations. Of course the 911 has nearly 50 years of practically identical side profile going and it still looks great. Not every car needs to be completely reworked every generation, and a Hoffmeister kink and a few other basic styling elements do strongly identify a BMW, so it's unlikely to change anytime soon.

[ric124]

I might be wrong but the last time I checked most German car manufacturers share the same suppliers.

Bosch, Hella, Borg-warner, etc

Isn't the Volkswagen group the largest car manufacturer?
http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/auto...est-automaker/

S4 and 335 are both really nice cars from two respectable brands BMW and Audi.

Everyone should just go to their local dealer and test drive both cars with an open mind then come back and make a civil discussion because right now this seems to be a bashing thread.

[micknugget]

Originally Posted by MERCSUk153

So what are you saying so you discussed among a few friends and now your opinion is Audi is a 2nd tier manufacturer even though they aren't really.
So what are you saying is the fact? That some parts have both VW and Audi logo hence 2nd tier or that business wise it isn't the smartest move?
Well BMW actually have many parts that are manufactured by the same companies that manufacture the VW parts and that is a fact.
The point we are making is that your opinion even though it is your opinion is incorrect if you look at the true facts that we all have pointed out to you. Your facts as you say of discussing it among a few friends and seeing the logo on some parts are not very good facts at all in forming your opinion if you look at all the information so far provided to you.
If you want to through out the door all the real facts that a few of us has indicated than I guess we can't do much to change your mind and keep posting inaccuracies about Audi all you want, but I recommend that you really look at what has been presented to you by not just us Audi owners but some of your own BMW owners.

Guess what? You're making all kinds of assumptions and you don't know sh$t about me. I used to work for an Audi dealership. I have friends who used to work for VW as the headquarters was right here in Troy Mich. I have owned 3 Audi and 4 VW. So i guess the "friends" (hey another made up misquote...you should work in politics) I know an talk to that designed the damw things must not know anything either.

[The X Men]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Because most of the world doesn't want a cheap, three box car. You only said that BMW and MB didn't know how to build cheap cars, which I pointed out simply isn't the case. Just because they don't sell cheap cars pitched solely to the relatively small US market doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing in that realm.

Do you really think the Mercedes A class is a quality affortable car? It looks like a low quality smart car. The price in the UK for a average A class is 14000 pounds, thats $23000. Would you pay $23000 for this piece of shiz:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes_a_class

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by The X Men

Do you really think the Mercedes A class is a quality affortable car? It looks like a low quality smart car. The price in the UK for a average A class is 14000 pounds, thats $23000. Would you pay $23000 for this piece of shiz:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes_a_class

Look up what any car costs in the UK with VAT. I would absolutely buy a Mini One or Mini D over a Jetta. Of course I'd just keep riding my bike over a Jetta too.

Also, the new A Class looks a good bit different than the original and wouldn't be a bad choice if you were in that market. Of course we're both on an F30 forum, so this all seems a bit silly.

[The X Men]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Look up what any car costs in the UK with VAT. I would absolutely buy a Mini One or Mini D over a Jetta. Of course I'd just keep riding my bike over a Jetta too.

Also, the new A Class looks a good bit different than the original and wouldn't be a bad choice if you were in that market. Of course we're both on an F30 forum, so this all seems a bit silly.

The Mini in the US starts at $22000 and goes all the way up to $35000, I would not exactly called that a $15000 mid size sedan. The A class is nothing more than fancy smart car, the reason why is not sold here in the US is because there is no demand for a $23000 smart car.
My original point was that Audi and Lexus should not be considered lesser of a brand just because they are associated with VW and Toyota. After reading your post, I now think that BMW and Mercedes should be considered lesser of a brand because they are associated with the Mini and the A-class

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by The X Men

The Mini in the US starts at $22000 and goes all the way up to $35000, I would not exactly called that a $15000 mid size sedan. The A class is nothing more than fancy smart car, the reason why is not sold here in the US is because there is no demand for a $23000 smart car.
My original point was that Audi and Lexus should not be considered lesser of a brand just because they are associated with VW and Toyota. After reading your post, I now think that BMW and Mercedes should be considered lesser of a brand because they are associated with the Mini and the A-class

I give up, you clearly weren't the strong reader at your school, or you're a politician, or both.

I mentioned the Mini One, not a US spec Cooper. The A Class would not be $23k with US pricing, as even your beloved Jetta starts at 17k pounds (albeit with nicer ROW specs, not the solid axle US spec). Further, as already stated, there's a new A-Class coming that may even make it to the US.

But to your point that Audi and Lexus aren't diluted by being associated with VW and Toyota, I generally do agree with that. Of course VW also has Skoda and SEAT to drag them down, and Toyota has Scion too. I don't buy cars based on brands, if Hyundai continues building great cars, I'll probably own one of those at some point, and if BMW keeps building heavy, electronically assisted cars with minimal feedback, I'll probably stop buying those too.

[Casey 5]

I think GM is still the largest auto manufacturer worldwide...with Toyota and VW Group very close behind.

I agree with the poster who said--Audi and BMW are both GREAT brands. You should test drive both the S4 and the F30 335i and see what you think.

But to eliminate the S4 test drive because of the VW connection is just cheating yourself.

Audi is making some great cars--especially in their S, R, and RS lines.

Their designs are both GERMAN (strong, , slightly aggressive) and MODERN/TECH.

If Audi designs had to be compared to a technology company...it would compare to Apple. Take the S5....not a line out of place. The R8 V10 spyder...that thing will still be gorgeous in 100 years.

Clean...modern...functional designs...beautiful. Audi interiors always have fit and finish beyond customer expectations.

Both Audi and Apple make products that could be show cased in a museum of modern art.

BMW....as we all know....has struggled to regain that clean, beautiful, slightly aggressive GERMAN design....ala E46 M3 (both hard top and vert)...or the Z8...or the E39 M5....or last generation M6/650i (hardtop vert.)

Cabin fit and finish suffering....remember the refresh of the E90/E92 when they just removed the beautiful wood trim cover off the center console change dish?

Those pennywise decisions made at BMW are viewed as pound foolish at companies like Audi and Apple.

BMWs....suffering from Bangle hangover....has got to get back to beautiful German design...and when I mean slightly aggressive...I do not mean dropping the nose ala F30.

I mean showing muscle through slightly bulging fenders ala E46 M3...just a hint of something special.

Gee whiz BMW used to be the ABSOLUTE BEST at that!

Now we get the new 650i--FAT and NO PASSION...3 series verts with clunky folding hard tops that destroy the beautiful lines of the car...(e46 verts were as, if not more beautiful, than their hard top bretheren) or the GT.

What the heck happened???

I look at the BMW show room....I think......

BMW is strictly targeting men age 55-65 who play golf at the country club.

[The X Men]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

I give up, you clearly weren't the strong reader at your school, or you're a politician, or both.

I mentioned the Mini One, not a US spec Cooper. The A Class would not be $23k with US pricing, as even your beloved Jetta starts at 17k pounds (albeit with nicer ROW specs, not the solid axle US spec). Further, as already stated, there's a new A-Class coming that may even make it to the US.

But to your point that Audi and Lexus aren't diluted by being associated with VW and Toyota, I generally do agree with that. Of course VW also has Skoda and SEAT to drag them down, and Toyota has Scion too. I don't buy cars based on brands, if Hyundai continues building great cars, I'll probably own one of those at some point, and if BMW keeps building heavy, electronically assisted cars with minimal feedback, I'll probably stop buying those too.

You clearly cannot follow a thread, you need to read the whole thread before you offer your opinion.
My debate with another poster, before you butted in, was about BMW and Mercedes not able to built a quality mid size sedans for $15000. Thats a dollar sign I used, not pounds.
I dont think Skoda and SEAT drag down VW either, just like Audi is not drag down by VW and Toyota is not drag down by Scion.
About the only thing we agree on is that one should not buy a car based on the brand name. Hyundai is making some nice cars, but their dealership network is few and far in between and customer service is terrible.

[nal13]

Originally Posted by Casey 5

I look at the BMW show room....I think......

BMW is strictly targeting men age 55-65 who play golf at the country club.

Unfortunately with the economy the way it is, that demographic along with its reputation, is going to be what keeps a company like BMW afloat. At the end of the day, all companies including BMW, Audi, and yes even Apple, are about the bottom line. The business men making the decisions at BMW care more about the green then they do us. Thats just business. With less resources then it's competitiors (BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Infiniti), BMW is even more about the bottom line. In my opinion BMW still does have the best reputation out of all of the competition, and the powers that be at BMW know this. Therefore they are using that reputation, not the development of superior cars, to stay on top. For example, what other car company would be able to carry over the engine in their bread and butter model and get away with it (BMW N55 engine).

BMW's reputation was unmatched in th 80's 90's and 00's. They made the best cars. Unfortunately that is now enough to sell cars.

[GuhBookGi]

Originally Posted by MERCSUk153

Casey you are spot on.
When I had the e39 no car in the segment could touch it for the design both interior and especially the exterior. After that when I went to trade in the car and get something else I couldn't stand the interior of the next gen. When I got back into the e39 I felt it was more luxurious than the new 5er not to mention the e39 looked much nicer exterior wise.
I would have loved the e46 M3 but couldn't afford to buy it so I settled for the B5 A4 and modded instead but I really loved the design of the E46. Exterior and interior it was the best. When the e90 came out I really wanted the car due to the N54 engine but when I was at the dealership I didn't like the interior and felt it was somewhat of a downgrade from the E46 design but what an engine for tuning. BMW needs to get back to the good old days of design and performance rather than targeting the older population as it will turn into Cadillac of German cars if this keeps going on. Well not really but you get the idea.

This post is entirely subjective (based solely on your own emotions and bias) and I respectfully disagree. You simply can't (and shouldn't) establish truths fixed on your opinions. That's kind of the whole reason for Hitler, isn't it? (YES, another Hitler reference on the internet )

Just because to you, the E90 was such a "downgrade", it doesn't mean that BMW targeting the older population. You also just can't say bmw isn't focused on design and performance because you didn't like the exterior and interior.

Dramatic much?

[1BMW335]

You can do a search, but mgmt made a commitment to Lamborghini owners that they would not exceed 30% Audi parts in their vehicles. Audi is doing all the right things and I expect better design using lighter materials going forward. They have the engineering resources and some of the best Italian designers from Lamborghini and the recently acquired Ducati brand.

FYI: Audi AG acquired Ducati, not VW. Audi's parent company is no longer VAG but is now known as IAG because Porsche and VW has equal shares.