[The X Men]

Originally Posted by micknugget

I would say that Audi is more guilty than BMW of designing cars that appeal to the masses. The VW Jetta is a very conservative design and the A4 really looks like a fancied up Jetta. My main issue with the A4 was that I didn't really care for the looks. They were too neutral.

The looks of a car is subjective, what you considered neutral, some might find nice looking. While others will find the F30's front end has too much of a " in your face " look about it. Either way, when I said BMW is designing cars that appeal to the masses, I was refering to F30's larger size, softer suspension, better MPG and softer steering.

[micknugget]

Originally Posted by The X Men

The looks of a car is subjective, what you considered neutral, some might find nice looking. While others will find the F30's front end has too much of a " in your face " look about it. Either way, when I said BMW is designing cars that appeal to the masses, I was refering to F30's larger size, softer suspension, better MPG and softer steering.

Thank you for clarifying but i don't know if I agree. BMW has made the 3 bigger and softened the ride, i'll give you that but few bMW diehards have complained too much about that. The steering is a result of getting better MPG which is a result of CAFE and CO2 emission regulations in the U.S. and Europe. It's just the way things are heading for everyone.

[The X Men]

Originally Posted by micknugget

Thank you for clarifying but i don't know if I agree. BMW has made the 3 bigger and softened the ride, i'll give you that but few bMW diehards have complained too much about that. The steering is a result of getting better MPG which is a result of CAFE and CO2 emission regulations in the U.S. and Europe. It's just the way things are heading for everyone.

All I can say is that a few car manufacturers are really closing the gap on BMW's performance edge and some have pass BMW in performance in a few models. In the mean time, BMW seem to be spending more R&D money on luxury and gas mileage than on performance. I hope this is not the new design direction for BMW.

[1BMW335]

Originally Posted by The X Men

All I can say is that a few car manufacturers are really closing the gap on BMW's performance edge and some have pass BMW in performance in a few models. In the mean time, BMW seem to be spending more R&D money on luxury and gas mileage than on performance. I hope this is not the new design direction for BMW.

The majority of owners buy it for the brand and perceived "Luxury." 328 base leasers running around for less than $400/month. It's the Toyota of luxury cars and it's the most mass produced. Profit in the U.S. is based on volume sales and that's why most people go for BMW over Audi, regardless of what "enthusiasts" say.

[The X Men]

Originally Posted by 1BMW335

The majority of owners buy it for the brand and perceived "Luxury." 328 base leasers running around for less than $400/month. It's the Toyota of luxury cars and it's the most mass produced. Profit in the U.S. is based on volume sales and that's why most people go for BMW over Audi, regardless of what "enthusiasts" say.

If I were looking for a luxury brand, I think I would perceived Mercedes as more of a luxury brand than BMW. I always view BMW as the brand that is the sportiest and Mercedes being the most luxurious, Audi is somewhere in between. I think people in the US prefer BMW over Audi because of Audi's pass reputation. Audi had some bad publicity in the last few decades here in the US. Its only recently that people are starting to overlook them.
BMW does play around with the lease numbers, that’s why they lease cars at such a high volume.

[micknugget]

Originally Posted by The X Men

If I were looking for a luxury brand, I think I would perceived Mercedes as more of a luxury brand than BMW. I always view BMW as the brand that is the sportiest and Mercedes being the most luxurious, Audi is somewhere in between. I think people in the US prefer BMW over Audi because of Audi's pass reputation. Audi had some bad publicity in the last few decades here in the US. Its only recently that people are starting to overlook them.
BMW does play around with the lease numbers, that’s why they lease cars at such a high volume.

I don't think that it's bad publicity. I think that it's a few things.
1) It's the relationship with VW that gives them a 2nd tier perception compared to BMW, Mercedes, Lexus. It shouldn't matter but it's the perception that I have seen and heard.
2) Audi (and VW) had some pretty bad reliability issues a few years back and it is pretty well known. Audi has greatly increased their reliability but it will take a little while to recover.
3) Their designs (on their higher volume cars) are just not as sexy as BMW or mercedes. The mid-90s A4 was very plain and IMO ugly. The recent A4 is much nicer but still looks to maintstream (and too much like a Jetta).

[Casey 5]

Audi has been coming out with the best looking car models over the last 5 years hands down--

The R8
The R8 V10 Spyder
The S5/ RS5
The A5/S5 vert (which kept the rag top--letting you have a trunk too!!)
The S4
The new TT RS
The A7/S7 (Compare that to the BMW GT)
The new A6
An S8

Have you seen the new ALL LED headlights on the new A6, A7, A8?

Just talking headlights....BMW use to OWN the cool head light segment with Xenon plus Angel eyes...Audi came in and took over the WOW factor by INNOVATING with LEDS....where was BMW....out designing the GT...while Audi was designing the A7.

In comparison BMW has been struggling to get back to designing cars that had pure, bold, GERMAN, holistic design....with the right hint of aggression..

Remember the SHEER BEAUTY of the E46M3, the E46 330i with ZSP, the Z8 (in its own way as gorgeous as the Audi R8), and in my opinion the last 650i vert. Heck the simple GERMAN beauty of the E 39 Five series.

Cars where EVERYTHING about the design just works...then, now, forever.

I think Audi is closer to that today with the R8, A7, S5 vert, RS5 than anything at BMW.

Look at the new 6 series...does that really get your blood pumping?

Look at the GT

Perhaps its a Bangel hang over...

But BMW has to get back to designs that make you salivate ala Z8.....or the E46M3!!!

[Casey 5]

Those who "knock" Audi's relationship with VW, Porsche, Lambo, do not understand the concept of supply chain.

When the VW Group goes out to an automotive supplier their VOLUME dictates price across components both shared and unshared...by VW, Audi, Porsche, etc.

For example....if VW, Porsche, Audi, all use a common fuse for the dash lighting....they get a much better price than independent BMW because of Volume. Their volume gets the VW Group the same part as BMW but for much less.

But it does not end there...if that supplier also sells a part unique to Audi...an LED assembly....Audi can get that for lower cost than if they were independant based on the volume buys of the VW group.

The savings across the VW Group have a rippling effect across the ENTIRE supply chain.

The savings can then go to:

R&D
Higher quality materials in the cabins--why the Audi materials always seem better.
Shareholder value

So I think we all know that to compete...BMW will have to start forming alliances...with Nissan or some other manufacturer to increase volumes across their supply chain to compete.

The result if they do not--

You will get LESS for paying MORE for a BMW.

Its just that simple.

So do not knock the VW connection....it allows Audi to build quality at lower cost!!

That is the true reason the fit, finish, and LEDs are so good at Audi.

[sr5959]

Originally Posted by Casey 5

Audi has been coming out with the best looking car models over the last 5 years hands down--

The R8
The R8 V10 Spyder
The S5/ RS5
The A5/S5 vert (which kept the rag top--letting you have a trunk too!!)
The S4
The new TT RS
The A7/S7 (Compare that to the BMW GT)
The new A6
An S8

Have you seen the new ALL LED headlights on the new A6, A7, A8?

Just talking headlights....BMW use to OWN the cool head light segment with Xenon plus Angel eyes...Audi came in and took over the WOW factor by INNOVATING with LEDS....where was BMW....out designing the GT...while Audi was designing the A7.

In comparison BMW has been struggling to get back to designing cars that had pure, bold, GERMAN, holistic design....with the right hint of aggression..

Remember the SHEER BEAUTY of the E46M3, the E46 330i with ZSP, the Z8 (in its own way as gorgeous as the Audi R8), and in my opinion the last 650i vert. Heck the simple GERMAN beauty of the E 39 Five series.

Cars where EVERYTHING about the design just works...then, now, forever.

I think Audi is closer to that today with the R8, A7, S5 vert, RS5 than anything at BMW.

Look at the new 6 series...does that really get your blood pumping?

Look at the GT

Perhaps its a Bangel hang over...

But BMW has to get back to designs that make you salivate ala Z8.....or the E46M3!!!

Have to agree with this, good post.

[sr5959]

Originally Posted by MERCSUk153

The new to BMW owners just don't understand this concept. They are just to happy to own a "BMW."
For long time BMW owners or fans the current bunch of cars while great cars don't stir my soul like past BMW 5 series and 3 series did prior to the Bangle era. If we take the new F30 for example while it is a great car it has basically not changed much from the e90. New front grille and new 5er rear lights. Side profile is more or less identical to the e90. Not saying it is a bad thing but it is still a 6 year old design already. BMW should of designed something to knock the socks off of Audi but if we look at worldwide sales it hasn't really. Audi sales still continue to climb and only 10,000 units behind BMW.

Completely disagree with this, I think the F30 design is very different from the E90.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by sr5959

Completely disagree with this, I think the F30 design is very different from the E90.

The side profile is certainly similar, in abstract, but when studied in detail, it is quite different. The difference between the detailed side view of a B5/B6/B7 and B8 A4/S4 is much smaller though. Aside from the horse collar front end and some fancy headlight and taillight designs, Audi hasn't really moved on from the Peter Scheylling designs. Kind of a pity, since they've come a tremendous way from the sloppy dynamics of the B5 A4's I owned. The A5/S5 being the one exception to this, which is nearly perfect in everything but interior space; if it wasn't for the terrible packaging and the slow switch over from the old, anemic V8 to the supercharged V6, we would have certainly bought an S5 coupe instead of the 135i.

[justinnum1]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

The side profile is certainly similar, in abstract, but when studied in detail, it is quite different. The difference between the detailed side view of a B5/B6/B7 and B8 A4/S4 is much smaller though. Aside from the horse collar front end and some fancy headlight and taillight designs, Audi hasn't really moved on from the Peter Scheylling designs. Kind of a pity, since they've come a tremendous way from the sloppy dynamics of the B5 A4's I owned. The A5/S5 being the one exception to this, which is nearly perfect in everything but interior space; if it wasn't for the terrible packaging and the slow switch over from the old, anemic V8 to the supercharged V6, we would have certainly bought an S5 coupe instead of the 135i.

what are your thoughts in the 135? does it have the n54 or n55?

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by justinnum1

what are your thoughts in the 135? does it have the n54 or n55?

Ours is a 2008, with the N54. Quick summary, it's a good car kept from being great by the lack of an LSD, a stupid set of tires and lots of early warranty work. It's had the usual warranty work done, and then some, but it's actually been problem free for the last two years (knock on wood). The suspension is a hot mess, too stiff and jarring with RFT's, too soft and squishy with real tires. But overall, compared to the S5 and 335i E92 that were available in 2008, it was the right choice for us. It's a few hundred pounds heavier than what I'd really prefer, and as stated, the suspension is an odd mix of undercooked, especially compared to an E92, but the smaller size and less feminine styling really work better for me.

It was sort of supposed to replace my Z3 M Coupe, but didn't really win me over, so it remained my wife's car. I sold my M Coupe and haven't really decided what to replace it with. We need family friendly cars, and the F31 and a Golf R are the current leading candidates, or the wife may get an F30 and I might skip the practical part and get the new Boxster S or try to find a used Boxster Spyder.

[micknugget]

Originally Posted by Casey 5

Those who "knock" Audi's relationship with VW, Porsche, Lambo, do not understand the concept of supply chain.

When the VW Group goes out to an automotive supplier their VOLUME dictates price across components both shared and unshared...by VW, Audi, Porsche, etc.

For example....if VW, Porsche, Audi, all use a common fuse for the dash lighting....they get a much better price than independent BMW because of Volume. Their volume gets the VW Group the same part as BMW but for much less.

But it does not end there...if that supplier also sells a part unique to Audi...an LED assembly....Audi can get that for lower cost than if they were independant based on the volume buys of the VW group.

The savings across the VW Group have a rippling effect across the ENTIRE supply chain.

The savings can then go to:

R&D
Higher quality materials in the cabins--why the Audi materials always seem better.
Shareholder value

So I think we all know that to compete...BMW will have to start forming alliances...with Nissan or some other manufacturer to increase volumes across their supply chain to compete.

The result if they do not--

You will get LESS for paying MORE for a BMW.

Its just that simple.

So do not knock the VW connection....it allows Audi to build quality at lower cost!!

That is the true reason the fit, finish, and LEDs are so good at Audi.

I fully understand the concept of supply chain but when you link a less expensive brand to a more expensive brand, you are either going to bring one brand up in prestige or one brand down. In this case I think it brings Audi down more than it brings VW up.

[justinnum1]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Ours is a 2008, with the N54. Quick summary, it's a good car kept from being great by the lack of an LSD, a stupid set of tires and lots of early warranty work. It's had the usual warranty work done, and then some, but it's actually been problem free for the last two years (knock on wood). The suspension is a hot mess, too stiff and jarring with RFT's, too soft and squishy with real tires. But overall, compared to the S5 and 335i E92 that were available in 2008, it was the right choice for us. It's a few hundred pounds heavier than what I'd really prefer, and as stated, the suspension is an odd mix of undercooked, especially compared to an E92, but the smaller size and less feminine styling really work better for me.

It was sort of supposed to replace my Z3 M Coupe, but didn't really win me over, so it remained my wife's car. I sold my M Coupe and haven't really decided what to replace it with. We need family friendly cars, and the F31 and a Golf R are the current leading candidates, or the wife may get an F30 and I might skip the practical part and get the new Boxster S or try to find a used Boxster Spyder.

If you can get a boxster s or spyder thats a no brainer imo

[micknugget]

Originally Posted by justinnum1

If you can get a boxster s or spyder thats a no brainer imo

The new Boxter is soooooooooooooooo pretty

[Robin_NL]

If I didn't have a wife and kids, I 'd order a new Boxster rightaway. Great car.

A quote from the test in German:

Audi baut beim S4 grundsätzlich den quattro-Allradantrieb und das straffe S-Sportfahrwerk ein, hat dem Testwagen dazu die Dynamiklenkung (1000 Euro), das Sport-Differenzial an der Hinterachse (950 Euro) und das Drive-Select-System (200 Euro) spendiert. Auch das beeinflusst Lenkung, Gas und Schaltung. So ausgestattet, ist der S4 tatsächlich ausgesprochen flink und wendig unterwegs und kann, anders als der A4-Fronttriebler praktisch zum hinterradgetriebenen 3er aufschließen: viel Traktion, lebendiges Einlenkverhalten, direkte Lenkung – wenn auch merklich gefühlloser als im BMW.

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/audi-...t-3393146.html

Exactly what I was saying about the dynamic sport diff. It's practically like a rwd BMW(kudos to Audi to get that fwd based platform work the way it does at last) but with less feel. That's what I meant. I recall a Dutch test mentioning how grippy the S4 felt , but also less playable than the 335i.
To each their own.

Cheers
Robin

[The X Men]

Originally Posted by micknugget

1) It's the relationship with VW that gives them a 2nd tier perception compared to BMW, Mercedes, Lexus. It shouldn't matter but it's the perception that I have seen and heard.

By the same token, Lexus should have the same 2nd tier perception as well, since Toyota are one of the most boring brand in the world.
I tell you what, let me know next time BMW or Mercedes can built a quality $15000 mid size sedan like VW and we will talk again.

[justinnum1]

Originally Posted by The X Men

By the same token, Lexus should have the same 2nd tier perception as well, since Toyota are one of the most boring brand in the world.
I tell you what, let me know next time BMW or Mercedes can built a quality $15000 mid size sedan like VW and we will talk again.

It does to me

just like infiniti is a nicely wrapped nissan

[sr5959]

Originally Posted by The X Men

By the same token, Lexus should have the same 2nd tier perception as well, since Toyota are one of the most boring brand in the world.
I tell you what, let me know next time BMW or Mercedes can built a quality $15000 mid size sedan like VW and we will talk again.

On your first statement, I think Lexus are perceived as upmarket Toyotas by many including me, even though I owned one for years. This doesn't bother me however.

On your 2nd statement, totally agree. I persuaded a friend to buy a base Jetta (previous model not the current one) for about $15,000 and it was a great car, exceptionally well built.

[micknugget]

Originally Posted by The X Men

By the same token, Lexus should have the same 2nd tier perception as well, since Toyota are one of the most boring brand in the world.
I tell you what, let me know next time BMW or Mercedes can built a quality $15000 mid size sedan like VW and we will talk again.

Read some Lexus reviews for their lower end stuff and they are usually called glorified Toyotas. And it appears that several other posters agree with me.

Oh, and Mercedes and BMW don't want to make $15,000 cars because they want to be known only as prestigious and high end. and I hope you aren't talking about a stripped Jetta because there are a lot of other cars i and the rest of the world would rather have for $15k.

[JoeyO]

If Audi is just a repackaged Volkswagen, then BMW is a repackaged Mini because I read somewhere that BMW and Mini will soon be sharing the same platforms for some new front wheel drives models.

I don't knock Audi for having the VW relationship. If you're fresh out of college, have your first job, still paying your student loans, and saving for a downpayment for your first house, which car would you buy new? You can't say BMW because most young people in that situation can't afford a brand new BMW. Are you going to buy a brand new Toyota Corola? I know my friends would laugh at me if I drove one. Volkswagen is the logical choice in my mind, particularly if you have a favoritism towards European cars. A used BMW isn't practical because while it may be cheap to purchase at first, the out-of-warranty costs would kill your wallet in the long run. So the only cheap brand new car with a factory warranty that I would buy fresh out of college is a VW.

Then when that person earns more money in life, it's a natural progression to move up to an Audi, because they've already been VW owners. It makes sense to me.