[Slick_FThirty]

Hello,

FCP euro now has a video, write up, and kit on replacing the timing chain on the N20 engine. I'm not particularly experienced with car repairs, but am technical with a reasonable amount of tools. Can also lift the car on all fours (jack and stands).

To give some perspective, the only things I've done is a coolant flush, turbo inlet mod, oil changes, differential oil, and transmission oil and pan change.

I don't want to break the car or end up with a boat in the garage that I can't get back up and running.
However, I'm willing to put in the time and effort.

How complex is the timing chain replacement process? Is it DIY?
My local indies are charging around 4K. The dealer is 7.5k (prices are CAD). So I'd be saving quite a bit of money.

[sspade]

I would say that it is very involved, time consuming repair. That being said... does not appear to be rocket science so long as you are methodical in your approach and have all of the necessary tools ready to go.

If you've go the ability to have the car laid up for a solid week (or a couple weekends, depending on if you work or not) then Id like to see you go for it. Definitely make a new thread with some pics, that would be huge.

I dont believe you will break anything if you're careful. The biggest risk in my opinion is the holy shit moment when you're 10 hours in... and only half way done. If thats not a problem then go for it!

I believe an experienced tech can get it done in 10 hours total but since that's not what we are, I figure double that. Dealer quotes that I have seen are in the 20 hour range (book time).

[RMachuca3d]

I think a big part of the whole job is to be organized, so many bolts\nuts\gaskets etc... its daunting no doubt. Personally the part that scares me the most is dropping the subframe, and not forgetting all of the timing lockouts. G'luck!

[gzN26]

I would leave it to the professionals. It is an insane amount of work....FCP definitely makes it look easier. There are a lot of special tools that you need and wouldn't make sense to spend the money just to use them once. Not to mention one mistake could cost you your car.....
With the amount of time and effort required...youre better off just spending the 4 grand (if you have it, of course) and save yourself the migraine...not headache, this job will cause a migraine hahahaha GOOD LUCK!!

[Slick_FThirty]

Originally Posted by gzN26

I would leave it to the professionals. It is an insane amount of work....FCP definitely makes it look easier. There are a lot of special tools that you need and wouldn't make sense to spend the money just to use them once. Not to mention one mistake could cost you your car.....
With the amount of time and effort required...youre better off just spending the 4 grand (if you have it, of course) and save yourself the migraine...not headache, this job will cause a migraine hahahaha GOOD LUCK!!

I'm starting to share this perspective. I didn't fully watch the FCPEuro video yet, which I will do to develop an insight, but I saw a clip where they were wiggling the transmission into place for which I don't have the equipment or nerves. Also, dropping the subframe sounds tedious/difficult.

As you said, the risk is significant, and a lot of work, and you can't mess up at any step.

Does anyone know how the reimbursement works? Can I just submit the receipts to BMW? They reimburse Indy work, but how do they verify, especially if it's a situation of a repair done before the warranty even exists?

[sspade]

In order to get reimbursement...

BMW dealer must submit (to corporate) a continuous loop video showing the vehicle VIN plate and then panning to the engine that displays an audible whine consistent with timing chain component failure.

[sspade]

You haven't mentioned that you're experiencing any issues... are you?

Do you realize how statistically uncommon this issue is? Or are you of the neurotic type that can't sleep at night because you've heard about a potential issue?

Timing chain component failure is extremely rare. The amount of N20 powered vehicles on the road is absolutely astounding.

[Slick_FThirty]

Originally Posted by sspade

In order to get reimbursement...

BMW dealer must submit (to corporate) a continuous loop video showing the vehicle VIN plate and then panning to the engine that displays an audible whine consistent with timing chain component failure.

Hehe I see what you did there. That was for the dealer. Not me. That was also assuming it is intact. I'm talking about alternative reimbursement. What if I changed the chain prior to knowing about this? What if I changed the chain before the warranty came into effect? Etc.

The engine being in one piece at the dealer and making sounds is the ideal situation. However, there are many other situations that can occur.

Being able to show a video with whine is the obvious solution as confirmed by SA but may not happen for many reasons.

[Slick_FThirty]

Originally Posted by sspade

You haven't mentioned that you're experiencing any issues... are you?

Do you realize how statistically uncommon this issue is? Or are you of the neurotic type that can't sleep at night because you've heard about a potential issue?

Timing chain component failure is extremely rare. The amount of N20 powered vehicles on the road is absolutely astounding.

Yep, that sounds like me. I also like to do projects on my car, so I'm always planning what I'm going to do next.

I also appreciate your perspective on the scope of the issue and see the reasoning. However, there are many people who would disagree with you.

[Slick_FThirty]

Originally Posted by sspade

You haven't mentioned that you're experiencing any issues... are you?

Do you realize how statistically uncommon this issue is? Or are you of the neurotic type that can't sleep at night because you've heard about a potential issue?

Timing chain component failure is extremely rare. The amount of N20 powered vehicles on the road is absolutely astounding.

Can you provide stats? One thread is currently at 13 percent or so if I recall correctly. That is quite common.

[jared21927]

Originally Posted by sspade

You haven't mentioned that you're experiencing any issues... are you?

Do you realize how statistically uncommon this issue is? Or are you of the neurotic type that can't sleep at night because you've heard about a potential issue?

Timing chain component failure is extremely rare. The amount of N20 powered vehicles on the road is absolutely astounding.

Thank you. I feel like i'm the only person sometimes that looks at this rationally. I was worried once too but then I dug deeper and realized, it's not nearly as bad as the internet makes it.

[Slick_FThirty]

It was significant enough to trigger a 3-year lawsuit....

[Jimmert]

The internet always shows a skewed view on reality, people with issues are more likely to post something about it. I believe the problem is real, but the percentage of affected cars is probably lower than you’d think.

Regarding this DIY, of course whether a DIY is really a DIY is very personal. I think it is a DIY, but one of the highest category. I’m a pretty enthusiastic and experienced DIY’er myself, but l would be very hesitant to start this one. Replacing the top chain I would dare, but the bottom one is a real PITA. Dropping the subframe is not a small thing. And not forgetting the amount of special tools you need, making it also from an economic POV not so interesting.

Only if you have the proper space, tools, time(days!!) and you actually like doing this, you could try it, else better to outsource this one.

[RMachuca3d]

In all reality, the mental anguish of thinking "did i tighten that bolt to torque?" x1000 bolts\nuts in the whole process is mental torture :P.

[Linc0909]

Originally Posted by Slick_FThirty

It was significant enough to trigger a 3-year lawsuit....

A woman also sued McDonalds for burning herself while trying to fix her own coffee while driving, and won. Anyone can sue a company and convince 12 dipsh*ts that couldn't figure out a way to get out of jury duty to make the big bad corporation pay up.

You will need special tools to do the job. With parts, I've seen estimates in the $1500-2000 range from a dealer. May save a few bucks at an indy, but I'd stick with one that specializes in BMW and/or Euros

[Slick_FThirty]

Originally Posted by Linc0909

A woman also sued McDonalds for burning herself while trying to fix her own coffee while driving, and won. Anyone can sue a company and convince 12 dipsh*ts that couldn't figure out a way to get out of jury duty to make the big bad corporation pay up.

Everyone's F30s have been devalued as a consequence of this issue. Many people have had to pay very significant sums of money to address this concern, including complete engine replacement. Many of those people were likely placed into difficult financial situations. The amount of money lost in value or through direct payment to the issue is very significant for a mistake from a company that makes billions of dollars of net revenue.
Comparing the N20 and the people involved to a satirical and fringe lawsuit case is demeaning and disrespectful.

[Linc0909]

Originally Posted by Slick_FThirty

Everyone's F30s have been devalued as a consequence of this issue. Many people have had to pay very significant sums of money to address this concern, including complete engine replacement. Many of those people were likely placed into difficult financial situations. The amount of money lost in value or through direct payment to the issue is very significant for a mistake from a company that makes billions of dollars of net revenue.
Comparing the N20 and the people involved to a satirical and fringe lawsuit case is demeaning and disrespectful.

Satirical and fringe?? The woman incurred 2nd degree burns to her inner thighs and that was through her clothing. The residual value of an F30 is no different than any other BMW of the past. Just about every engine BMW has manufactured has an Achilles heel of one sort or another. The lawsuit is based on 'what if' scenarios, not one complainant has suffered a loss. Which is astounding that the lawsuit was even allowed to continue in the 1st place.

But good luck on your shade tree repair. Make sure you post before pics and of the tow truck pulling it away when you realize how over your head you are and knee deep so we all can get a good laugh. 😁👍🏽

[Slick_FThirty]

Originally Posted by Linc0909

Satirical and fringe?? The woman incurred 2nd degree burns to her inner thighs and that was through her clothing. The residual value of an F30 is no different than any other BMW of the past. Just about every engine BMW has manufactured has an Achilles heel of one sort or another. The lawsuit is based on 'what if' scenarios, not one complainant has suffered a loss. Which is astounding that the lawsuit was even allowed to continue in the 1st place.

I don't think a corporation should be liable for the incompetence of a customer e.g. being careless and spilling your coffee. However, the corporation should be liable for their own incompetence, such as implementing a flawed design and/or subpar manufacturing, as is the case with the N20. A class action lawsuit is initiated by a plaintiff who represents and fights for the benefit of a 'class' of individuals. Pre-existing damages to the individual or firm pursuing the corporation does not need to be demonstrated. They are simply representing those who have e.g. N20 owners. Many N20 owners have suffered a loss, as confirmed by multiple indies I have spoken to, as well as my Dealer and SA. Take a browse on the forum. All have said that timing chain replacement is a regular business for them, and have done engine swaps on numerous occasions. The N20 is a hot potatoe, and people are either selling at a loss or spending money to fix/prevent the issue, both of which are a consequence of BMWs negligence and incompetence. Timing chain and engine replacement are very expensive and invasive repairs that should never occur. As a result, BMW should be held responsible for the defects and cover these losses. Herein lies the lawsuit.

If you want more details, there are many hundreds of pages worth of thread postings on this topic all over the internet. Feel free to take a look.

[Slick_FThirty]

Originally Posted by Linc0909

But good luck on your shade tree repair. Make sure you post before pics and of the tow truck pulling it away when you realize how over your head you are and knee deep so we all can get a good laugh. 😁👍🏽

I think we are all already laughing, but I don't think it's at me.

[RMachuca3d]

Originally Posted by Linc0909

A woman also sued McDonalds for burning herself while trying to fix her own coffee while driving, and won. Anyone can sue a company and convince 12 dipsh*ts that couldn't figure out a way to get out of jury duty to make the big bad corporation pay up.

You will need special tools to do the job. With parts, I've seen estimates in the $1500-2000 range from a dealer. May save a few bucks at an indy, but I'd stick with one that specializes in BMW and/or Euros

Just to clarify this mcdonalds coffee case that is widely used as an example, the lawsuit was because the coffee was heated beyond what is acceptable in the industry, which indeed did cause much more severe burns, and originally the lawsuit was only for like 20k to cover medical expenses, and mcd tried to fight it and offered 500$ , only to end up paying hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[Linc0909]

Originally Posted by RMachuca3d

Just to clarify this mcdonalds coffee case that is widely used as an example, the lawsuit was because the coffee was heated beyond what is acceptable in the industry, which indeed did cause much more severe burns, and originally the lawsuit was only for like 20k to cover medical expenses, and mcd tried to fight it and offered 500$ , only to end up paying hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Yeah I know the details of the suit. I understand why she was awarded a settlement, my point is that she put a hot cup of coffee between her legs to pull the top off. Regardless of the temp of the coffee, she injured herself and sued the restaurant. On avg McDonalds coffee was 10° hotter than other restaurants like Dunkin' but even a coffee from there would have left burns.

The point is, anyone can sue but unlike this woman that actually suffered life long scaring (suffered a loss) the complainants in this class action used internet rhetoric as their basis and went to a extremely liberal court in NJ to file their case. The lead complainant cried that he wouldn't have purchased the vehicle had he known of the issue. Well sell the car then 🙄

The cases of actual failure is extremely low. There is no residual recourse of the issue. Case in point, I looked on KBB for the value of my 2013 328i and compared it to the same yr 330i with all the same options and mileage. The 328i came in at an avg of $11,600, the 330i was at $13,900. Being the starting price of these two vehicle options that is well within what the comparative resale should be. So if the N20/N26 timing issue caused a negative residual effect then the difference in resale value would be much more exaggerated.

[Slick_FThirty]

Originally Posted by Linc0909

Yeah I know the details of the suit. I understand why she was awarded a settlement, my point is that she put a hot cup of coffee between her legs to pull the top off. Regardless of the temp of the coffee, she injured herself and sued the restaurant. On avg McDonalds coffee was 10° hotter than other restaurants like Dunkin' but even a coffee from there would have left burns.

The point is, anyone can sue but unlike this woman that actually suffered life long scaring (suffered a loss) the complainants in this class action used internet rhetoric as their basis and went to a extremely liberal court in NJ to file their case. The lead complainant cried that he wouldn't have purchased the vehicle had he known of the issue. Well sell the car then 🙄

The cases of actual failure is extremely low. There is no residual recourse of the issue. Case in point, I looked on KBB for the value of my 2013 328i and compared it to the same yr 330i with all the same options and mileage. The 328i came in at an avg of $11,600, the 330i was at $13,900. Being the starting price of these two vehicle options that is well within what the comparative resale should be. So if the N20/N26 timing issue caused a negative residual effect then the difference in resale value would be much more exaggerated.

Two people just posted within 24 hours about a whine and will be proceeding with timing chain replacement. That is just on one thread and isolated to members of Bimmerpost and are the savvy people that even know about the issue. These are the enthusiasts doing all the maintenance on their cars properly and knowing everything that needs to be known. I bet a decent percentage of owners don't even know or care about the issue or their cars, let alone report and complain. Would they even know what a timing chain is? They just hop in and drive.

But let's call the issue imaginary. They'll be spending $8k combined. That's clearly not a lot of money. They are clearly not affected by BMWs negligence and incompetence. Nope, no harm there. I guess the whine that they're hearing is really just the screams of internet rhetoric echoing across the globe.

Ps lawsuits operate on facts and evidence, not rhetoric. Lawsuits and the courts are fair and just. Courts and law form the basis of society. If it were really that skewed, then there would be much bigger problems for BMW and other corporations than paying for a timing chain.

And you say the cases are very low. Can you provide evidence? One thread is at 13%. That is not low. Indies and dealers back this.

Oh and that's right, BMW redesigned the components and spent the time, money, and effort just to respond to internet rhetoric. Right, that's how it works. The reason why you would alter a design is because of a flaw that has become apparent. Dealer statistics and warranty claims drew attention to this, not internet rhetoric.

If I knew about the issue and was going to buy an N20, I would use it to drive the price down. I don't care about KBB.

You can believe what you want, but I feel others reading this post need to see reality and make an informed judgement. Anyone can do as they wish and may formulate their own opinion as they see fit.