[Wills2]

Originally Posted by martin10chk

Well ... I started this thread but it has left me well behind! If anyone is still interested in the Taycan saga (I suspect not!) I had a drive of my colleague's one today. I thought it was very sharp, very smooth, very refined. Couldn't fault it to drive. In fact a brilliant car. But those percentage annual depreciation rates make it a no for me.

Posh EVs work if you're business user and can take advantage of the tax benefits, they are priced to take account of the subsidies available to the first business user which is why they then fall like a stone once outside of that user group.

The collapse in EV used pricing we've seen is not dissimilar to what happens to a pyramid scheme when there are no more people to join it, it's a front loaded scheme with all the benefits going to the top tier, and there in lies the problem with the EV transition if there is no demand lower down the chain (used market) the whole thing grinds to a halt.

We have seen the EV share of the market go backwards slightly in 2023 and that is quite serious for a category that should be experiencing exponential growth, Porsche AG has lost close to 40% of its market cap in the last 6 months or so close to €20 billion, so the market can see the issue of over priced EVs reliant on gov subsidies that have no where to go after the lease is done.

This isn't about being anti EV it's more about businesses thinking they can charge what they like during the transition relying on the tax payer to fund their 20% PBIT margins whilst they spin off divisions hoping to get a luxury brand P/E ratio, when we're meant to be saving the planet.

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by KCH1984

I bought my M135i (the “proper”
N55 engined version) for that reason alone, but sadly the noise itself didn’t make up for the many other shortcomings of the car when used as a daily. For that reason I can understand why many will prefer the current version of the M135i and, whisper it, even my white goods Tesla is a much better steer down a B road on the odd occasion I am in it myself.

I don't have a bad word for my F40 M135i... and none of the new cars really have that much of an engine noise on start up now due to the emissions regs and how that affects things...

[DaveA]

I think one of the major hurdles to overcome now is how users of petrol/diesel cars who have no access to home EV charging (and there are a great many) can realistically change to an EV, across the price range, without if all becoming an expensive (and massive) faff...

This and actually creating genuinely affordable quality vehicles...

What options are there for somebody who's affordability is something like an i10 Hyundai on a cheap PCP deal and who lives in a maisonette (or similar)...?

Unless we can address these issues then there can only ever be so much of an uptake amongst those who can swap and those who cannot swap will be left behind...

(apologies for drifting off topic)

[MashinBenzin]

On the collapsing values and looking at my text history…

My model Y is

Up £4.5k since November 11th
Down £1.5k since March 5th

Considering it sells like the Ford Focus traditionally did, and deals with a ton of EV bad press, that’s pretty strong.

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by Wills2

We have seen the EV share of the market go backwards slightly in 2023 and that is quite serious for a category that should be experiencing exponential growth

I'm not sure if it's actually gone backwards but certainly not forwards in a way everyone projected. Considering the Leaf/i3 came to market in 2011/12 EV adoption has been (and remain) pretty glacier. At least new diesel sales do seem to be nearly dead now.

https://www.motorfinanceonline.com/news/2023-motor-finance/

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

On the collapsing values and looking at my text history…

My model Y is

Up £4.5k since November 11th
Down £1.5k since March 5th

Considering it sells like the Ford Focus traditionally did, and deals with a ton of EV bad press, that’s pretty strong.

I wouldn't consider a Tesla Model Y an overpriced EV they start at around 45k don't they? It's the modern equivalent of the Mondeo, no doubt there is a chart in Labour's HQ that talks about Model Y man.

Although Tesla's UK 2023 sales were down 9% in 2023 against an overall market that up 18% despite offering great value and the charging network etc...

Perhaps belt tightening and redundancies softened demand in the second half of the year.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

I'm not sure if it's actually gone backwards but certainly not forwards in a way everyone projected. Considering the Leaf/i3 came to market in 2011/12 EV adoption has been (and remain) pretty glacier. At least new diesel sales do seem to be nearly dead now.

https://www.motorfinanceonline.com/n...motor-finance/

Market share went back slightly volume grew but behind the overall market.

Pity that diesel has died as one fitted with a SCR catalyst and DPF is no worse than petrol but is more efficient and lower CO2, although diesel outsold PHEVs last year so not dead just yet.

[KRS_SN]

2 in 3 EV in UK in 2023 are bought by business buyers (BB).

BB (not sure abt exact rates) get ? 40% of value of EV tax written off

Ie 60k EV but true value = 60% of 60k = 36k!! Ie cashback of 24k from HMRC. No VED either yay!

Now the private buyer gets nothing from the government

Government gets 20% as VAT = 12k

So private buyer gets screwed time 1..

At lease end those 60k ev actually bought for 36k by BB are dumped into the market en masse from the BB and then any equity the private buyer would have otherwise had ? 5k vanishes due to supply and demand

So private buyer gets screwed time 2.

why no blowback against this?

ICE owners v EV owners fighting while businesses and government laughing all the way to the bank.

[davyk31]

Not exactly. The saving for a business is at the current corporation tax rate which is 25% this year. However there is a kick back when the car is sold and tax is then due as the car has been written down to zero value. It’s really more a cash flow matter than the billy bargain it seems.
But yes private buyers don’t get this benefit. Zero road tax is one benefit I guess if you look only at financial matters. The fact you get a lovely car to drive maybe is the sweetener.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by davyk31

Not exactly. The saving for a business is at the current corporation tax rate which is 25% this year. However there is a kick back when the car is sold and tax is then due as the car has been written down to zero value. It’s really more a cash flow matter than the billy bargain it seems.
But yes private buyers don’t get this benefit. Zero road tax is one benefit I guess if you look only at financial matters. The fact you get a lovely car to drive maybe is the sweetener.

Thanks I missed that point... so for BB instead of 36k purchase price for a 60k ev it's 48k assuming it's disposed off at 30k after 3 years. I agree that the EV drivetrain is sweet to drive.

[Bryans69]

Originally Posted by Wills2

I wouldn't consider a Tesla Model Y an overpriced EV they start at around 45k don't they? It's the modern equivalent of the Mondeo, no doubt there is a chart in Labour's HQ that talks about Model Y man.

Although Tesla's UK 2023 sales were down 9% in 2023 against an overall market that up 18% despite offering great value and the charging network etc...

Perhaps belt tightening and redundancies softened demand in the second half of the year.

Also, they weren't launched until Feb 2022, so assuming large number are business lease, probably on 2-3, not many on the second hand market yet. I think the next year will see a bigger drop as more hit the second hand market.

[cramsnik]

Coincidentally this popped up on Pistonheads yesterday. Surprisingly not too much nonsense spouted ...worth a read

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/...&t=2061036&i=0

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by cramsnik

Coincidentally this popped up on Pistonheads yesterday. Surprisingly not too much nonsense spouted ...worth a read

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/...&t=2061036&i=0

I read that yesterday...didn't have the heart to post it here..as an EV owner I was kind of down for the rest of the day after reading that.

[Bryans69]

I saw that as well. Some interesting replies from Taycan owners as well......

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by cramsnik

Coincidentally this popped up on Pistonheads yesterday. Surprisingly not too much nonsense spouted ...worth a read

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/...&t=2061036&i=0

If the battery pack is only guaranteed for 8 years/100k miles - and costs a scarcely believable £55k to replace should it fail - who's going to buy these cars when they get to 5 or 6 years old? Ok, the battery might work quite happily well beyond the warranty period but if it doesn't you're basically faced with writing the car off if a replacement pack really costs that much - wonder how many prospective buyers will be happy to take that sort of risk?

[NanasBack]

Maybe an opportunity for another insurance policy, just for battery cover?
They'll not all fail at 8 years old, so a sliding scale premium based on age...?

[martin10chk]

Originally Posted by JNW1

If the battery pack is only guaranteed for 8 years/100k miles - and costs a scarcely believable £55k to replace should it fail - who's going to buy these cars when they get to 5 or 6 years old? Ok, the battery might work quite happily well beyond the warranty period but if it doesn't you're basically faced with writing the car off if a replacement pack really costs that much - wonder how many prospective buyers will be happy to take that sort of risk?

Very interesting thread on PH and a lot of real world experience reported there. As I said earlier, having explored this ... I am out!

[JD6]

Originally Posted by JNW1

If the battery pack is only guaranteed for 8 years/100k miles - and costs a scarcely believable £55k to replace should it fail - who's going to buy these cars when they get to 5 or 6 years old? Ok, the battery might work quite happily well beyond the warranty period but if it doesn't you're basically faced with writing the car off if a replacement pack really costs that much - wonder how many prospective buyers will be happy to take that sort of risk?

I would hope that by the time these cars are 8 years old, there will be specialists who can recondition and swap out a battery pack, just as they can for an engine or gearbox currently. Clearly no-one is going to pay 55k for a new battery pack in an old car, just as they wouldn’t buy a new engine for an old car.

[JustChris]

Wow that PH re review goes into awesome detail!! Very good.

Awful o see the porker last out of 20 EVs in a reliability survey. Hmm, maybe early cars.

For me still the only reason I’m in an EV:-

Salary Sacrifice

All in payment, tax savings, not left with a depleted battery car after 3 / 4 years.

[Nibbles]

The depreciation plus the poor reliability of the Taycan doesn't make much sense as a second hand purchase. Both people I know that had them as company cars chopped them in early for E-tron GT's as they spent more time with Porsche than on their drive.
To spend my hard earned pennies on an EV with no real tax benefit just seems like a middle class environmental self tax.
On the annoyance of EV's and reliability, my brother took a trip to see his in-laws in Ireland for Christmas. Got as far as Wales before his 3 year old iPace wouldn't take a charge. No Jag garages anywhere near that could deal with it and it was the Friday before Christmas so lobbed the wife and kids in a premier inn and he spent the Saturday on 3 separate trucks bringing it back home then borrowed my G31 and did the journey again and without the need to fill up.
That said, when the iPace lease runs out this year, even after that trauma, he'll still be getting an EV (Model Y as better family car).95% of the time it'll do the job and it's tax beneficial to him and any car can breakdown, it's just they're a bit more of a pain to get fixed. Of the 3 years of ownership his iPace has spent at least 6 months with Jag for various faults.

[crAbb]

Originally Posted by JustChris

Wow that PH re review goes into awesome detail!! Very good.

Awful o see the porker last out of 20 EVs in a reliability survey. Hmm, maybe early cars.

For me still the only reason I’m in an EV:-

Salary Sacrifice

All in payment, tax savings, not left with a depleted battery car after 3 / 4 years.

I think the financials are why most folk are in an EV Chris.

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by JNW1

If the battery pack is only guaranteed for 8 years/100k miles - and costs a scarcely believable £55k to replace should it fail - who's going to buy these cars when they get to 5 or 6 years old? Ok, the battery might work quite happily well beyond the warranty period but if it doesn't you're basically faced with writing the car off if a replacement pack really costs that much - wonder how many prospective buyers will be happy to take that sort of risk?

Not just writing it off, you could actually be stuck with the cost of disposing of the vehicle if you could not afford to have the pack swapped out...