[dazzapb]

Geez that panorama exposed (to me) more post office criminality. Cover ups, bribery, non disclosure of evidence, discrediting the forensic accountants at second sight. These are all serious crimes from their senior management. Jail time for the scum - perjury and perverting course of justice. Whilstblower from Fujitsu said the software was a bag of shit to his bosses. They changed the data remotely too. They tampered with evidence. Reminds me of when the police changed the evidence from the fans at hillsborough.
Please lord tell me we will see jail time for these criminals?

[Watsey]

And the merry go round of denial continues...

Stephen Bradshaw, a PO employee of 45 years including as a PO Horizon investigator currently giving evidence at the public enquiry, claims that he "wasn't technically minded".

Rhetorically, how does a non-technically-minded person get appointed (and accepts the appointment) into a role as an official investigator where, given that he admits that he was aware of the reported issues, the IT system is arguably THE single most important consideration ?

Lots of words spring to my mind, none of which are complimentary.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by Watsey

And the merry go round of denial continues...

Stephen Bradshaw, a PO employee of 45 years including as a PO Horizon investigator currently giving evidence at the public enquiry, claims that he "wasn't technically minded".

Rhetorically, how does a non-technically-minded person get appointed (and accepts the appointment) into a role as an official investigator where, given that he admits that he was aware of the reported issues, the IT system is arguably THE single most important consideration ?

Lots of words spring to my mind, none of which are complimentary.

To be fair, I've done investigations (and I'm a certified fraud examiner) and also not technically minded - the idea is that your skills get you to contemplate whether there is some technical issue that could be masking the issue / be the route of the fraud, and then you get independent experts to do the tech stuff...

Internal investigators asking the internal IT team if the internal system was OK was never going to cut it.... unless they had the balls to say "there are too many examples, I dont believe you". The fact they claim that the problems were not relayed to them is of course B*ll*cks, water cooler conversations would have been common given he number with shortfalls...

[dazzapb]

Originally Posted by Watsey

Just saw that on the news

Now we need to see the next phase => pursuing those that lied (or knowingly instigated unsafe prosecutions) as part of the Post Office's persecution of Sub-Postmasters, and making sure they get their commupance.

Edit - Vennells says that she's sorry for "the devastation...as a result of the Horizon system". Call me cynical, but it comes across as a very carefully-worded statement (via a global PR agency) and it's conspicuous that she doesn't make any reference to the actions of Post Office personnel in the decisions whether (or not) to prosecute Sub-Postmasters. The Horizon system didn't trigger the prosecutions process, PO senior management made those choices.

Indeed she’s infamous for her initial non apology apology where she is in effect blaming the victims! And it continues
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology

[JNW1]

Watched some of the inquiry this afternoon in which Stephen Bradshaw (a senior investigator with the Post Office) was giving evidence. He came across to me as a thoroughly nasty piece of work who probably took great delight in bullying and intimidating Sub Post Masters into giving false confessions; there was also no real sign of any remorse or regret for the damage he'd helped inflict on innocent people.

I can only hope he'll eventually see a day of reckoning which will result in him losing his job and pension entitlement; the icing on the cake would be a stay at His Majesty's pleasure for perverting the course of justice.

[Ennoch]

It's not the fact that the system was crap that's the problem, things go wrong. It's not that they started prosecuting post masters per se (because if the post masters had been doing what they were accused of, that was a fair response). It's that they knew the system was crap and not only continued to use it but then also continued bully, abuse and shame the post masters into paying their own money to the company, taking property and livelihoods that weren't theirs to take, and made people serve time for things they didn't do, all past the point they knew the system was shit. The people who made these conscious decisions to follow this path of persecution should absolutely be serving time for their decision, hit with financial penalties, and barred from ever holding positions of power again. They made a decision to ruin lives that they knew had done nothing wrong; both Royal Mail and Fujitsu. That the system architect is saying he wants immunity from any prosecution before he testifies is telling.

[boba-fett]

Originally Posted by JNW1

Watched some of the inquiry this afternoon in which Stephen Bradshaw (a senior investigator with the Post Office) was giving evidence. He came across to me as a thoroughly nasty piece of work who probably took great delight in bullying and intimidating Sub Post Masters into giving false confessions; there was also no real sign of any remorse or regret for the damage he'd helped inflict on innocent people.

I can only hope he'll eventually see a day of reckoning which will result in him losing his job and pension entitlement; the icing on the cake would be a stay at His Majesty's pleasure for perverting the course of justice.

Your right, I can just imagine what that guy was like 20 odd years ago as an auditor / investigator with the power to remove people from their jobs.

I have seen the likes of him in previous roles I have done.

[KRS_SN]

All the regulatory roles in most fields are filled by people who haven't done a honest days work in the frontline but pontificate to the people who do because its easy ..
Shit always floats to the top.

[Wills2]

The PO is the same today as it was back then, same attitude same maleficence in its dealings, I note that due to a bit of false accounting it's now financially bankrupt as well as morally.

Back in 2008 to 2010 I ran a division that had a £30 million contract to supply the crown post offices and the sub post master network, we had Horizon access in our office, it was a mess (the system) £ millions of stock would disappear nothing would reconcile we had endless meetings with PO middle management about it, meeting them for the first time when I took over was eye opening I'd never met people like that in business.

After the first meeting I took my dept heads into my office looked at them and said WTF! Now you know what we're dealing with came the reply.

When the scandal broke not long after I wasn't remotely surprised, anyone that has had dealings with them knows.

[JustChris]

..

[agentorange]

So I see from the BBC coverage of the questions put to the various parties that most are totally unprepared and/or have suddenly developed memory issues. This is the final act of any large origination when the usual tactics of denial, threats, even payoffs with NDAs, have failed.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by agentorange

So I see from the BBC coverage of the questions put to the various parties that most are totally unprepared and/or have suddenly developed memory issues. This is the final act of any large origination when the usual tactics of denial, threats, even payoffs with NDAs, have failed.

Indeed but so much more is coming out, not just the PO and Fujitsu, but courts/cps, lawyers, senior civil servants and ministers, it's a massive coverup involving all the major arms of the state and every major political party.

This being the latest one, the Government signed off on the PO firing the accountant firm that were getting too close to the truth in 2014.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68079300

I'm surprised that Paula Vennells hasn't been taken into protective custody, it will at least make it easier when the time comes to arrest her.

[3-GT]

Originally Posted by Wills2

Indeed but so much more is coming out, not just the PO and Fujitsu, but courts/cps, lawyers, senior civil servants and ministers, it's a massive coverup involving all the major arms of the state and every major political party.

I wouldn't expect anything less. People of power and stature know they can risk covering thing's up because they have the resources - financial and/or influence, to limit the punishment if it all unravels.

They need to start making better examples of these people. Until then nothing will change, but they'll try and convince us that 'things will change'.

We 'the western world' criticise other countries for corruption, cover-ups etc. We're no better. We just put more effort in to trying to hide it.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by 3-GT

I wouldn't expect anything less. People of power and stature know they can risk covering thing's up because they have the resources - financial and/or influence, to limit the punishment if it all unravels.

They need to start making better examples of these people. Until then nothing will change, but they'll try and convince us that 'things will change'.

We 'the western world' criticise other countries for corruption, cover-ups etc. We're no better. We just put more effort in to trying to hide it.

Agreed, as well as being outraged at what they have done, I feel ashamed of the country for probably the first time. I feel we've been in a downward spiral ever since the financial crash, our standing the in world and the quality of our governance is heading to zero.

When I look at the state of our roads I actually see our countries reputation reflected in them. In that they are a broken, patched up, potholed mess.

[boba-fett]

Originally Posted by Wills2

Agreed, as well as being outraged at what they have done, I feel ashamed of the country for probably the first time. I feel we've been in a downward spiral ever since the financial crash, our standing the in world and the quality of our governance is heading to zero.

When I look at the state of our roads I actually see our countries reputation reflected in them. In that they are a broken, patched up, potholed mess.

Very well said. Nothing to be proud of anymore. It’s embarrassing.

That Vennells should be stripped of her assets and go down for a stint, not because it will make her feel like the wrongly accused post masters, but because she has actually committed a crime that warrants a jail sentence.

[agentorange]

This whole affair shows we have gone from "Too big to fail" in 2008, to "Too big to admit our mistakes" in 2024. It's pretty obvious that a hardcore in the Post Office, and probably some lurkers in the upper-middle areas of the Civil Service, are determined to fight rearguard action to the last.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by agentorange

This whole affair shows we gone from "Too big to fail" in 2008, to "Too big to admit our mistakes" in 2024. It's pretty obvious that a hardcore in the Post Office, and probably some lurkers in the upper-middle areas of the Civil Service, are determined to fight rearguard action to the last.

We've lost our class, the sense of what is decent & honourable, people will lie, twist, obfuscate and refuse to be held to account.

And it's happening everywhere in all forms of public life, I think there must be something in the water.