[crAbb]

Originally Posted by boba-fett

With all this info and issues coming through (most likely be more as they age) and the fact they depreciate like a stone and would offset any savings you MIGHT make on MPG...

...why would you still buy one?

As per Harry's data, the vast majority are bought on the back of business tax relief.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by boba-fett

With all this info and issues coming through (most likely be more as they age) and the fact they depreciate like a stone and would offset any savings you MIGHT make on MPG...

...why would you still buy one?

Personally I wouldn’t. Too many unknowns still out there. However as a second car which had little range expectation anyway yes I we might over time when it’s replacement time.

[Grant_7]

I'm looking to BUY a SECOND-HAND EV later this year.

I must be mad. Apparently.

[JD6]

Originally Posted by crAbb

As usual Metcalf hits the nail on the head. As I've been saying for many years, we should all be buying diesel

Actually this is what you said in 2017…

Originally Posted by Lobb

I understand that there once was a (much misaligned) prophet that used to frequent this forum.

I also understand that said prophet did warn of the forthcoming doom and damnation that will fall on those that fill up from the black pump of beelzebub.

Your original post was deleted but it’s included in my reply… https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...2&postcount=58

Here’s the whole thread https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1438602

[Wills2]

I think a large 6cyl diesel makes an awful lot of sense in a full sized SUV, I had the X5 50e recently and the powertrain didn't suit it despite its power (500hp) and banzai performance numbers.

Tesla seem to have the right idea with the cars they sell, they seem to be the most efficient, have the best charging and are lighter, the Germans seem to just be creating very expensive EV blunderbusses and I don't see how that translates to the wider market or drives adoption meaningfully beyond current levels.

BEV share of sales in January was 14.5% miles away from the 22% target they have set, either something new is going to breakthrough or they are going to have to think again.

[crAbb]

Originally Posted by Wills2

I think a large 6cyl diesel makes an awful lot of sense in a full sized SUV, I had the X5 50e recently and the powertrain didn't suit it despite its power (500hp) and banzai performance numbers.

Tesla seem to have the right idea with the cars they sell, they seem to be the most efficient, have the best charging and are lighter, the Germans seem to just be creating very expensive EV blunderbusses and I don't see how that translates to the wider market or drives adoption meaningfully beyond current levels.

BEV share of sales in January was 14.5% miles away from the 22% target they have set, either something new is going to breakthrough or they are going to have to think again.

Indeed. The 14.5% was largely driven by companies enjoying the laughably generous tax breaks.

[agentorange]

I think some of the huge depreciation on EVs is down to the charging problem stories out there. You can plan a journey in an EV all you want, but if you arrive at your charging station and it's FUBAR, your trip now becomes an exercise in stress management. Most of us don't have the time or patience to deal with that crap.

Over here I went to Texas and back for Xmas. That is over 1200 miles each way. With a standard EV range of about 300 miles, that becomes tricky to complete in two days if there are any hiccups at the charging locations. We used a ML350 Bluetec, one of the last V6 examples sold in the US. With judicious use of the cruise control, we could have stretched our fuel stops to 600 miles, but we didn't. I lost a couple of fuel receipts, so I cannot be accurate with consumption, but I'm betting it was around 25 mpg in US gallons, or ~30 mpg Imperial. Can't argue with that in a comfy vehicle carrying all our crap. Oh, and none of the Teslas we overtook on the I-40 had to be repassed after a fuel, food or pee break. Could be a clue there.

[crAbb]

Originally Posted by agentorange

I think some of the huge depreciation on EVs is down to the charging problem stories out there. You can plan a journey in an EV all you want, but if you arrive at your charging station and it's FUBAR, your trip now becomes an exercise in stress management. Most of us don't have the time or patience to deal with that crap.

Over here I went to Texas and back for Xmas. That is over 1200 miles each way. With a standard EV range of about 300 miles, that becomes tricky to complete in two days if there are any hiccups at the charging locations. We used a ML350 Bluetec, one of the last V6 examples sold in the US. With judicious use of the cruise control, we could have stretched our fuel stops to 600 miles, but we didn't. I lost a couple of fuel receipts, so I cannot be accurate with consumption, but I'm betting it was around 25 mpg in US gallons, or ~30 mpg Imperial. Can't argue with that in a comfy vehicle carrying all our crap. Oh, and none of the Teslas we overtook on the I-40 had to be repassed after a fuel, food or pee break. Could be a clue there.

That's amazing. You have a vehicle with a source of power, that can 'make progress' on a long journey and you don't have to plan ahead/worry about refueling it? Now that sounds like the future

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by JD6

Your original post was deleted but it’s included in my reply… https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...2&postcount=58

Here’s the whole thread https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1438602

Busted 😂

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by boba-fett

With all this info and issues coming through (most likely be more as they age) and the fact they depreciate like a stone and would offset any savings you MIGHT make on MPG...

...why would you still buy one?

I wanted to try it. If you always do the same thing, you always get the same result. Improvement comes from trying new things...

Its a Jag. It drives like a Jag. Regardless of power source. Although battery suits it.

And as it turns out I love it. I cant see its replacement not being an EV....

It definitely wont be a noisy, hard sprung, loud thing where I never get to use the one thing it excels at....

But life would be very dull if we were all the same. Then we'd all be LobB's / CrabB's / NTG's characters and we could all talk to ourselves....

[boba-fett]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

I wanted to try it. If you always do the same thing, you always get the same result. Improvement comes from trying new things...

Its a Jag. It drives like a Jag. Regardless of power source. Although battery suits it.

And as it turns out I love it. I cant see its replacement not being an EV....

It definitely wont be a noisy, hard sprung, loud thing where I never get to use the one thing it excels at....

But life would be very dull if we were all the same. Then we'd all be LobB's / CrabB's / NTG's characters and we could all talk to ourselves....

Gotcha

I'm sorry to say, I am not a Jag fan either so an EV Jag is about as undesirable as it gets for me! But as you say we are all different.

[D69GMB]

Originally Posted by Wills2

I think a large 6cyl diesel makes an awful lot of sense in a full sized SUV, I had the X5 50e recently and the powertrain didn't suit it despite its power (500hp) and banzai performance numbers.

Tesla seem to have the right idea with the cars they sell, they seem to be the most efficient, have the best charging and are lighter, the Germans seem to just be creating very expensive EV blunderbusses and I don't see how that translates to the wider market or drives adoption meaningfully beyond current levels.

BEV share of sales in January was 14.5% miles away from the 22% target they have set, either something new is going to breakthrough or they are going to have to think again.

Would you care to elaborate a bit on the X5 50e?. I currently have one on order and will be getting rid of the X3 M40d, unfortunately I have not been able to test a 50e so am going in blind but have an easy get out clause if I change my mind nearer delivery time. Having watched various videos on YouTube it looks an impressive machine. Curious to see what you thought of it.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by JD6

In the video, Harry mentioned that when he’d asked for this, the dealer wanted the car for a day. It just feels like this should be much more easily available, as it is with Battery Health on an iPhone. I buy reconditioned iPhones for my son, as they do sometimes get broken. The two details which govern the price are condition and Battery Health.

Glad to hear battery degradation isn’t usually a significant problem, but it is still an issue for a car under 8 years old. The warranty only covers a certain percentage of original capacity (70-80 I think) and I’d like to be able to make an informed decision when buying a car. One with 99% capacity is worth much more to me than one with 81%.

I have just bought a 1 year old EV, but my approach was just to be prepared to return it to the main dealer if it wasn’t good enough.

The question of battery life and degradation was discussed in the recent Taycan thread and I do think it's relevant and has potentially significant implications for the values of used EV's. Of course the whole thing might be a non-issue if either battery degradation proves to negligible and/or lower cost solutions for replacing batteries emerge. But if evidence starts to show EV batteries tend not to last much beyond their warranty period who's going to spend a significant amount of money on buying (say) a 5 or 6 year old EV?

I was also reading in Which? that 25% of Audi EV's have needed a replacement battery under warranty which to me doesn't bode terribly well for general longevity beyond the warranty period...

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by D69GMB

Would you care to elaborate a bit on the X5 50e?. I currently have one on order and will be getting rid of the X3 M40d, unfortunately I have not been able to test a 50e so am going in blind but have an easy get out clause if I change my mind nearer delivery time. Having watched various videos on YouTube it looks an impressive machine. Curious to see what you thought of it.

For me the 3.0l petrol engine didn't suit its placement in what is 2.4t SUV, I just kept on thinking it would be better with the 40d engine in it.

I missed that elastic low down grunt that the big diesels offer at step off, that smooth push up the road surfing the torque as you make effortless progress. (a trait I think suits big cars)

Masses of power and performance on offer of course but its delivery when called upon was a bit frenetic and balls out rather than the progressive shove a car with the 40d gives you. (many will prefer the former and so do I in smaller performance cars like the M3/M2 etc..)

It went through the battery charge like a hot knife through butter and once that was done you're left with a very thirsty machine I saw sub 20mpg on local runs often.

Driven in EV mode you're driving a very heavy car giving a 30-40 mile real world range (and less in cold temps I saw 10 miles wiped of the battery just chatting to a friend whilst parked up)

As a car it's lovely nothing to complain about, looks good to me with a lovely interior (missing HVAC controls notwithstanding) but I got used to that I managed to understand the latest idrive, the screen and maps are great, loads of space, practical, rides well and handles well, it's a lovely car.

It would have just been better with the latest 40d MHT powertrain in it IMO as it's less about the bare power and torque numbers but how those numbers are delivered if that makes sense.

But someone else could come along and disagree with me pointing to the silent start up, ability to trundle through town in that silence then once the road opens up the sporty engine note and eagerness to rev and of course the performance etc...

We're talking preference here not good vs bad if that makes sense.

[D69GMB]

Originally Posted by Wills2

For me the 3.0l petrol engine didn't suit its placement in what is 2.4t SUV, I just kept on thinking it would be better with the 40d engine in it.

I missed that elastic low down grunt that the big diesels offer at step off, that smooth push up the road surfing the torque as you make effortless progress. (a trait I think suits big cars)

Masses of power and performance on offer of course but its delivery when called upon was a bit frenetic and balls out rather than the progressive shove a car with the 40d gives you. (many will prefer the former and so do I in smaller performance cars like the M3/M2 etc..)

It went through the battery charge like a hot knife through butter and once that was done you're left with a very thirsty machine I saw sub 20mpg on local runs often.

Driven in EV mode you're driving a very heavy car giving a 30-40 mile real world range (and less in cold temps I saw 10 miles wiped of the battery just chatting to a friend whilst parked up)

As a car it's lovely nothing to complain about, looks good to me with a lovely interior (missing HVAC controls notwithstanding) but I got used to that I managed to understand the latest idrive, the screen and maps are great, loads of space, practical, rides well and handles well, it's a lovely car.

It would have just been better with the latest 40d MHT powertrain in it IMO as it's less about the bare power and torque numbers but how those numbers are delivered if that makes sense.

But someone else could come along and disagree with me pointing to the silent start up, ability to trundle through town in that silence then once the road opens up the sporty engine note and eagerness to rev and of course the performance etc...

We're talking preference here not good vs bad if that makes sense.

Thanks very much for the insight. It all makes perfect sense and I honestly love the X3 M40d, we are on our second one now but my wife’s work has started a salary sacrifice scheme and are offering the X5 50d for £700 a month with no deposit,insurance,tyres or maintenance to pay for. We can cancel up to just before delivery for a small fee and at that price I can’t even get close to a new 40d for that never mind paying for the insurance etc.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by D69GMB

Thanks very much for the insight. It all makes perfect sense and I honestly love the X3 M40d, we are on our second one now but my wife’s work has started a salary sacrifice scheme and are offering the X5 50d for £700 a month with no deposit,insurance,tyres or maintenance to pay for. We can cancel up to just before delivery for a small fee and at that price I can’t even get close to a new 40d for that never mind paying for the insurance etc.

It's a no brainer then at £700 all in for the amount of car you're getting as that's an utter bargain like the deals on the X3M that I had which the 50e did remind me of in some ways.

I wouldn't cancel that deal.

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by Wills2

For me the 3.0l petrol engine didn't suit its placement in what is 2.4t SUV, I just kept on thinking it would be better with the 40d engine in it.

I missed that elastic low down grunt that the big diesels offer at step off, that smooth push up the road surfing the torque as you make effortless progress. (a trait I think suits big cars)

Masses of power and performance on offer of course but its delivery when called upon was a bit frenetic and balls out rather than the progressive shove a car with the 40d gives you. (many will prefer the former and so do I in smaller performance cars like the M3/M2 etc..)

It went through the battery charge like a hot knife through butter and once that was done you're left with a very thirsty machine I saw sub 20mpg on local runs often.

Driven in EV mode you're driving a very heavy car giving a 30-40 mile real world range (and less in cold temps I saw 10 miles wiped of the battery just chatting to a friend whilst parked up)

As a car it's lovely nothing to complain about, looks good to me with a lovely interior (missing HVAC controls notwithstanding) but I got used to that I managed to understand the latest idrive, the screen and maps are great, loads of space, practical, rides well and handles well, it's a lovely car.

It would have just been better with the latest 40d MHT powertrain in it IMO as it's less about the bare power and torque numbers but how those numbers are delivered if that makes sense.

But someone else could come along and disagree with me pointing to the silent start up, ability to trundle [...]

Large heavy (AWD) car = diesel plus auto box
Small light car = petrol plus manual.box (if poss.)
Rules of thumb I've always followed for maximum driving pleasure

[KCH1984]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

Large heavy (AWD) car = diesel plus auto box
Small light car = petrol plus manual.box (if poss.)
Rules of thumb I've always followed for maximum driving pleasure

Me neither. I had the pre-LCI 40d (great engine incidentally) but was paying more than that (even with the forces discount) before you factor in deposit, insurance and maintenance. That’s a stonking deal.

[JD6]

Originally Posted by JNW1

The question of battery life and degradation was discussed in the recent Taycan thread and I do think it's relevant and has potentially significant implications for the values of used EV's. Of course the whole thing might be a non-issue if either battery degradation proves to negligible and/or lower cost solutions for replacing batteries emerge. But if evidence starts to show EV batteries tend not to last much beyond their warranty period who's going to spend a significant amount of money on buying (say) a 5 or 6 year old EV?

I was also reading in Which? that 25% of Audi EV's have needed a replacement battery under warranty which to me doesn't bode terribly well for general longevity beyond the warranty period...

If that Audi figure is correct, that sounds to be an incredibly high failure rate - presumably enough to make their EV sales loss-making. I haven’t heard anything similar with BMW. The i3, which the Mini shares its battery with, has been around for a decade so hopefully that’s a good sign. Although the numbers were pretty small back then.

As you suggest, buying an EV outright, as I’ve just done, does come with an element of risk. In my case it’s dipping my toe in the water with a low cost one as a second car. So far I’m really impressed with it.

I take the view that vehicle types go in cycles of popularity. Back in 2008 SUVs were virtually unsellable for a couple of years - 4x4s were getting a really bad press. Similarly with diesel cars in 2015, but again that vanished.

I expect the current malaise in the EV market will turn a corner. Prices have dropped sharply and that’s bound to encourage some new interest. There are some genuine downsides of EVs, but they do seem to have been blown out of proportion with the current public mood in my view.

[Tengocity]

It’s a shame that these descend in to binary and polarised arguments.

Issues aside the thing Harry said was that the use case didn’t suit for them. He tows plus needs to do long trips. If it works for one’s needs then great.

The bigger issue for me is at the legislation level where manufacturers are being forced to produce certain ratios, by certain years, but the governments aren’t making sure that everything else is in place to make for a sensible transition for all people.

The cars are fine and I’d love one of it made practical and financial sense for us.

[E60525d]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

It’s a shame that these descend in to binary and polarised arguments.

Issues aside the thing Harry said was that the use case didn’t suit for them. He tows plus needs to do long trips. If it works for one’s needs then great.

The bigger issue for me is at the legislation level where manufacturers are being forced to produce certain ratios, by certain years, but the governments aren’t making sure that everything else is in place to make for a sensible transition for all people.

The cars are fine and I’d love one of it made practical and financial sense for us.

Yeah agree with most this. Presently EVs work for some and not for others. We have one as our 2nd car and it works really well for us as a 2nd car. But I can fully understand why they don't work for others. In fact I can't see a EV replacing our main family car which is a G05 X5 diesel.

As an example were planning a family trip north next week and obviously we're taking the X5. No way I would take any EV, we want to enjoy our a few days away and not worry about charging it!

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by JD6

If that Audi figure is correct, that sounds to be an incredibly high failure rate - presumably enough to make their EV sales loss-making. I haven’t heard anything similar with BMW. The i3, which the Mini shares its battery with, has been around for a decade so hopefully that’s a good sign. Although the numbers were pretty small back then.

As you suggest, buying an EV outright, as I’ve just done, does come with an element of risk. In my case it’s dipping my toe in the water with a low cost one as a second car. So far I’m really impressed with it.

I take the view that vehicle types go in cycles of popularity. Back in 2008 SUVs were virtually unsellable for a couple of years - 4x4s were getting a really bad press. Similarly with diesel cars in 2015, but again that vanished.

I expect the current malaise in the EV market will turn a corner. Prices have dropped sharply and that’s bound to encourage some new interest. There are some genuine downsides of EVs, but they do seem to have been blown out of proportion with the current public mood in my view.

Actually Audi wasn't the only manufacturer to have problems; apparently 17% of Tesla Model S owners also needed a battery replacement while for the Model X the figure was 37% - presumably gangzoom's one of the 63% who've been ok!

But leaving that concern aside I think you're right when you say a lot of the downsides associated with EV's are a bit exaggerated. There are some very good secondhand buys out there at the moment and, as we can charge at home and seldom do a high daily mileage nowadays, I'll certainly consider one come replacement time.