[thejeremyman9]

Alright gents, here's the data... Was a little time consuming to get here since i havent scripted in a while but i automated the process so i can easily do it for my own logs or others with only minor adjustments. Its particuarly easy if johnung logs with exactly the same parameters enabled otherwise i have to adjust things.

Basically, filtered the logs so that its only using data where TPS > 99%, gear = 4, and RPM is increasing. This makes the plots cleaner and only during the pull.

After that, plotted every single individual parameter vs RPM. Made lines from the same tune the same color (so duplicate runs on same map are the same color). Legend shows that. This allows for easy comparison of what changes between the maps.

Still havent really reviewed in detail yet but the most interesting ones will be boost target, timing, flex fuel correction factors, etc. Will review in more detail tomorrow.

View post on imgur.com

[johnung]

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

Alright gents, here's the data... Was a little time consuming to get here since i havent scripted in a while but i automated the process so i can easily do it for my own logs or others with only minor adjustments. Its particuarly easy if johnung logs with exactly the same parameters enabled otherwise i have to adjust things.

Basically, filtered the logs so that its only using data where TPS > 99%, gear = 4, and RPM is increasing. This makes the plots cleaner and only during the pull.

After that, plotted every single individual parameter vs RPM. Made lines from the same tune the same color (so duplicate runs on same map are the same color). Legend shows that. This allows for easy comparison of what changes between the maps.

Still havent really reviewed in detail yet but the most interesting ones will be boost target, timing, flex fuel correction factors, etc. Will review in more detail tomorrow.

View post on imgur.com

Wow! Awesome job. Thanks for taking the time to do this. Very interested in hearing your analysis. As soon as I can run the tank down I'll do logs the same way using E65/E70 and E85

[ZM2]

Here’s a Stg 2+ E30 OTS log LiveAdjusted to E50: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=618d...90c65df2c7b43e

Definitely more timing. Felt good. Hard to say what the power difference is. I’ll probably just wait until PTF releases their LPFP ethanol sensor like MHD’s before I mess with this anymore.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Here’s a Stg 2+ E30 OTS log LiveAdjusted to E50: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=618d...90c65df2c7b43e

Definitely more timing. Felt good. Hard to say what the power difference is. I’ll probably just wait until PTF releases their LPFP ethanol sensor like MHD’s before I mess with this anymore.

I've seen pictures of BM3's ethanol sensor and I don't see any advantage. I'm really glad that I went with Zeitronix sensor with dash gauge and upgraded fuel lines from Precision Raceworks. Got it all from Kies Motorsports.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by johnung

I've seen pictures of BM3's ethanol sensor and I don't see any advantage. I'm really glad that I went with Zeitronix sensor with dash gauge and upgraded fuel lines from Precision Raceworks. Got it all from Kies Motorsports.

I hear ya. Altho, I can install the LPFP sensor version pretty easily.

[thejeremyman9]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Here’s a Stg 2+ E30 OTS log LiveAdjusted to E50: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=618d...90c65df2c7b43e

Definitely more timing. Felt good. Hard to say what the power difference is. I’ll probably just wait until PTF releases their LPFP ethanol sensor like MHD’s before I mess with this anymore.

If you can collect 2 logs without the adjust then 2 logs with the adjust on the same day/road/tank of gas you can try using virtual dyno, but the different may be too small and only within the noise. 1 degree of timing can be 10+hp but you never know really.

I would also note that your boost target is higher than Johnung's and consistent with ctt's logs and others i have seen. So maybe he does have an issue with torque limits.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

If you can collect 2 logs without the adjust then 2 logs with the adjust on the same day/road/tank of gas you can try using virtual dyno, but the different may be too small and only within the noise. 1 degree of timing can be 10+hp but you never know really.

I would also note that your boost target is higher than Johnung's and consistent with ctt's logs and others i have seen. So maybe he does have an issue with torque limits.

Not quite sure what you mean about torque limits? Are you talking about the standard BM3 Stage2+ E30 logs that I logged with E50 in the tank? Why would my car be set to different parameters with what should be the same tune?

Are you saying that it's because I'm running the BootMod3 automatic transmission tune? I'm planning to get XHP. Should I get it now and run before/after logs?

[thejeremyman9]

Originally Posted by johnung

Not quite sure what you mean about torque limits? Are you talking about the standard BM3 Stage2+ E30 logs that I logged with E50 in the tank? Why would my car be set to different parameters with what should be the same tune?

Are you saying that it's because I'm running the BootMod3 automatic transmission tune? I'm planning to get XHP. Should I get it now and run before/after logs?

I don't really know how BM3 trans tune handles torque limits. Usually they are only a problem in 3rd/6th gear, so i am not sure why they would show up in 4th either. I need to look back at the logs but i dont think you have a parameter that shows whether or not you hit torque limits (MHD has 3 parameters for it). But there are OEM torque limits and the DME will limit power so as to not exceed those. XHP definitely raises torque limits, so i never had a problem with them after flashing XHP.

I don't have any other obvious explanation as to why your stage 2+ logs (both E30 and multi) are showing a different boost target than everyone elses on the same tune.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

I don't really know how BM3 trans tune handles torque limits. Usually they are only a problem in 3rd/6th gear, so i am not sure why they would show up in 4th either. I need to look back at the logs but i dont think you have a parameter that shows whether or not you hit torque limits (MHD has 3 parameters for it). But there are OEM torque limits and the DME will limit power so as to not exceed those. XHP definitely raises torque limits, so i never had a problem with them after flashing XHP.

I can look back through the possible BM3 parameters to log looking for anything involving torque.

I believe that XHP has three stages plus a lot of potential customization. Would it matter if I flashed Stage2 or Stage3?

[johnung]

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

I don't really know how BM3 trans tune handles torque limits. Usually they are only a problem in 3rd/6th gear, so i am not sure why they would show up in 4th either. I need to look back at the logs but i dont think you have a parameter that shows whether or not you hit torque limits (MHD has 3 parameters for it). But there are OEM torque limits and the DME will limit power so as to not exceed those. XHP definitely raises torque limits, so i never had a problem with them after flashing XHP.

I don't have any other obvious explanation as to why your stage 2+ logs (both E30 and multi) are showing a different boost target than everyone elses on the same tune.

Photos show all of the BootMod3 parameters that I could find that mention torque. Blue should be the ones currently being logged.

[thejeremyman9]

Originally Posted by johnung

Photos show all of the BootMod3 parameters that I could find that mention torque. Blue should be the ones currently being logged.

Well dont change your logging parameters now unless you need to, it will throw off my script lol.

Anyways the torque limit one doesnt seem to show like its being hit. But the torque target one looks like it hits a maximum value across all tunes, even the 91 multimap, which could explain why the 2+ isnt really making more boost/power? At least until the upper rpm.

[thejeremyman9]

Originally Posted by johnung

I can look back through the possible BM3 parameters to log looking for anything involving torque.

I believe that XHP has three stages plus a lot of potential customization. Would it matter if I flashed Stage2 or Stage3?

AFAIK all "stages" of XHP raise torque limits. You can confirm on official documentation. There are also endless customization options that are very easy and intuitive to use. I run stage 3 and its totally suitable for a DD, its not like its aggressive or anything, just the most tangible difference from stock.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

AFAIK all "stages" of XHP raise torque limits. You can confirm on official documentation. There are also endless customization options that are very easy and intuitive to use. I run stage 3 and its totally suitable for a DD, its not like its aggressive or anything, just the most tangible difference from stock.

BootMod3 specifically recommends XHP in Stage2+ E30 tune description but there is no mention of it in MultiMap tunes. See photo

Tough to say if there's any significance to that. BootMod3 can be inconsistent with their cut/paste written descriptions. So it may mean nothing or it may be on purpose.

[n55david]

Originally Posted by johnung

BootMod3 specifically recommends XHP in Stage2+ E30 tune description but there is no mention of it in MultiMap tunes. See photo

Tough to say if there's any significance to that. BootMod3 can be inconsistent with their cut/paste written descriptions. So it may mean nothing or it may be on purpose.

they recommend it for the multimap version of 2+ as well. this was confirmed a while back.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by Phantom10R

they recommend it for the multimap version of 2+ as well. this was confirmed a while back.

Do you recall where you saw that? As I indicated PTF is inconsistent with their descriptions. In the map description for Stage2+ E30, they clearly recommend XHP. But in the map description for MultiMap Stage2+ E30 there is no mention of XHP.

[n55david]

Originally Posted by johnung

Do you recall where you saw that? As I indicated PTF is inconsistent with their descriptions. In the map description for Stage2+ E30, they clearly recommend XHP. But in the map description for MultiMap Stage2+ E30 there is no mention of XHP.

direct from ptf.. I asked

[thejeremyman9]

Originally Posted by johnung

BootMod3 specifically recommends XHP in Stage2+ E30 tune description but there is no mention of it in MultiMap tunes. See photo

Tough to say if there's any significance to that. BootMod3 can be inconsistent with their cut/paste written descriptions. So it may mean nothing or it may be on purpose.

Sounds like that could be the issue with the lower boost target and you need XHP to take full advantage of the 2+ maps

[5w20]

Originally Posted by johnung

Do you recall where you saw that? As I indicated PTF is inconsistent with their descriptions. In the map description for Stage2+ E30, they clearly recommend XHP. But in the map description for MultiMap Stage2+ E30 there is no mention of XHP.

When I was beta testing the stage 2+ map, it was highly recommended to have the xHP transmission tune, straight from Halim.

[thejeremyman9]

Here's the new logs (after johnung flashed XHP). Dotted lines are the logs from before, solid lines are the new logs with XHP and E78 in the tank. Posting images now will respond more later.

These were all done with E78. (Tried to get E85 but it must have been a weak batch.) Also all were done with xHP Stage3 so shouldn’t have torque limits.


JU18 MmapSt2+ E30 tune

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6198...0b436c0e8300dd

JU19 MmapSt2+ E30 tune

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6198...90c62ca2667772

JU20 MmapSt2+ E30 tune

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6198...729b672ec74086


JU21 MmapSt2 91ACN tune

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6198...0b436c90f31d82

JU22 MmapSt2 91ACN tune

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6198...90c62d319cf140

JU23 MmapSt2 93 tune

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6198...729b672ec7409a

JU24 MmapSt2 93 tune

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6198...729b67b25b0a36

View post on imgur.com

[thejeremyman9]

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

Here's the new logs (after johnung flashed XHP). Dotted lines are the logs from before, solid lines are the new logs with XHP and E78 in the tank. Posting images now will respond more later.

These were all done with E78. (Tried to get E85 but it must have been a weak batch.) Also all were done with xHP Stage3 so shouldn’t have torque limits.

View post on imgur.com

So here's some observations:

- Timing targets are higher on the stage 2+ map than the stage 2 map even with flex fuel enabled on both (and the same E% in the tank). Going from E50 to E78 on the 2+ also increases timing targets a little more (due to flex fuel)

- 2+ map seems to make much more torque than stage 2 map even with flex fuel enabled on both (and the same E% in the tank), based on logged parameters. The E78 does allow the stage 2 map to make more torque than with E50 though.

- There is quite a bit of throttle closure on all the maps

- STFTs are maxed out (positive) on the stage 2 maps with E78, not sure if there is an issue with the tune adjusting for the ethanol, but they are also very high with E50. On the other hand the fuel trims are negative on the 2+ map with E78 and E50.

- the 2+ map with E78 is making over 22psi until about 4200 rpm. the stage 2 maps with the same ethanol are making about 18-19psi. This is with XHP. Without XHP, boost on all the maps was limited to around 17ish psi (up to ~19 peak in upper rpm)

- HPFP is crashing on the 2+ map with E78. Maybe some slight dips on the stage 2 93multimap as well.

- Boost target on the 2+ map is now consistent with other people's logs (with XHP) - flat at around 20.8 psi. The stage 2 multimap targets a bit lower.

So XHP definitely made a difference and allowed the 2+ map to make full power.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

So here's some observations:

- Timing targets are higher on the stage 2+ map than the stage 2 map even with flex fuel enabled on both (and the same E% in the tank). Going from E50 to E78 on the 2+ also increases timing targets a little more (due to flex fuel)

- 2+ map seems to make much more torque than stage 2 map even with flex fuel enabled on both (and the same E% in the tank), based on logged parameters. The E78 does allow the stage 2 map to make more torque than with E50 though.

- There is quite a bit of throttle closure on all the maps

- STFTs are maxed out (positive) on the stage 2 maps with E78, not sure if there is an issue with the tune adjusting for the ethanol, but they are also very high with E50. On the other hand the fuel trims are negative on the 2+ map with E78 and E50.

- the 2+ map with E78 is making over 22psi until about 4200 rpm. the stage 2 maps with the same ethanol are making about 18-19psi. This is with XHP. Without XHP, boost on all the maps was limited to around 17ish psi (up to ~19 peak in upper rpm)

- HPFP is crashing on the 2+ map with E78. Maybe some slight dips on the stage 2 93multimap as well.

- Boost target on the 2+ map is now consistent with other people's logs (with XHP) - flat at around 20.8 psi. The stage 2 multimap targets a bit lower.

So XHP definitely made a difference and allowed the 2+ map to make full power.

Thanks, Jeremy. Just to add for those reading that there are practical reasons for all of these logs. Availability of E85 is spotty in my area. There is an E85 pump a mile away but sometimes the station is out of stock or the electric pump itself is broken. The next closest station is an hour round trip.

I'm going to run a FlexFuel MultiMap tune daily. But it will be one of the FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2 tunes so that either my wife or me can just put 93 Octane in the tank, if our fuel tank is empty, without reflashing a different tune

So hopefully the logs will provide an idea of:

1) What I am giving up by running a FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2 tune instead of a FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2+ E30 tune. (I can use up to E85 fuel with both tunes since they are FlexFuel.)

2) If E85 availability forces me to run a FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2 tune, does the performance change (with E50/E85 in the tank) if I use the 91ACN, the 91 or the 93 Octane tune? I assume those tune names are the minimum fuel that is required for the tune, but do those minimums set the performance any different if a high percentage of ethanol is in the tank.

If there is a difference, then I'll choose the FlexFuel MultiMap 93 Octane tune. But if there is no difference, heck I'll run the FlexFuel MultiMap 91ACN tune so that my wife and I can easily put any fuel in the tank in an emergency.

My intention is to schedule a dyno day in the next month or so to get horsepower and torque graphs for the various tunes.

Thanks again, Jeremy!

[thejeremyman9]

Originally Posted by johnung

Thanks, Jeremy. Just to add for those reading that there are practical reasons for all of these logs. Availability of E85 is spotty in my area. There is an E85 pump a mile away but sometimes the station is out of stock or the electric pump itself is broken. The next closest station is an hour round trip.

I'm going to run a FlexFuel MultiMap tune daily. But it will be one of the FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2 tunes so that either my wife or me can just put 93 Octane in the tank, if our fuel tank is empty, without reflashing a different tune

So hopefully the logs will provide an idea of:

1) What I am giving up by running a FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2 tune instead of a FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2+ E30 tune. (I can use up to E85 fuel with both tunes since they are FlexFuel.)

2) If E85 availability forces me to run a FlexFuel MultiMap Stage2 tune, does the performance change (with E50/E85 in the tank) if I use the 91ACN, the 91 or the 93 Octane tune? I assume those tune names are the minimum fuel that is required for the tune, but do those minimums set the performance any different if a high percentage of ethanol is in the tank.

If there is a difference, then I'll choose the FlexFuel MultiMap 93 Octane tune. But if there is no difference, heck I'll run the FlexFuel MultiMap 91ACN tune so that my wife and I can easily put any fuel in the tank in an emergency.

My intention is to schedule a dyno day in the next month or so to get horsepower and torque graphs for the various tunes.

Thanks again, Jeremy!

#1 based on the datalogs (boost and timing mostly) and the virtual dyno results below you are probably giving up 20-30 whp and 30-50 wtq from 2700-4700 rpm or so by running the stage 2 flex map instead of stage 2+. You can also see that with XHP, the stage 2 flex map is basically making the same power the stage 2+ flex map (With E50) was making without XHP.

#2 it doesnt look like it. It seems like you can just run the ACN or 91 map with flex fuel and if you are running a higher E% it will make the same power as say a 93 flex map with that E%. You didnt log ACN with 78% ethanol, but i would say just run the 91 flex map for daily given your ethanol availability concerns.