[otay]

Originally Posted by KGB_123_99

Does anyone know if coding SAT also resets transmission adaptation?

I don't know if coding SAT resets it, but the BMWAi program sure does. Just did it.

First screen shot shows selections from the "Tools" menu.


2nd screen shot was the initial adaptive values


3rd screen shot was after reset.


4th screen shot was after a drive around the block (felt very responsive, BTW. And I didn't really get on it.)



More to come!

[otay]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Are you going to try different driving styles between resets to see if it returns to the exact same sluggish pattern each time?

Remember adaptations from driver input are pretty much in real time, so it is possible to get back to square one in relatively short time, but I'm not sure it is definitely due to driver influenced adaptations.

HighlandPete

Yep, gonna try some different stuff and keep track of the values...

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by otay

This is definitely a puzzle, and I'm determined to figure it out.

This morning, upon first start, it was back to it's sluggish ways. Most noticeable in low speed situations, like when pulling away from a stop. This is a mere 24 hours later.

So, did the reset procedure when going out for lunch. Sure enough, I could immediately tell the difference. No lag anywhere. Could even tell the the upshifts and downshifts were quicker. I think I've got the reset procedure down well now.

I'm going to do this a few more times and take very good notes before I go back to the dealer.

It's not my driving style. I've owned other performance oriented cars and would suggest I'm a "spirited" driver...with a tendency towards "aggressive" (but I can usually keep that in check ). Plus, how could my driving style make it revert back to sluggishness in less than 24 hours / less than 30 mins of driving?

Also, just received my Enet to OBD cable...gonna see what BMWAi shows (if anything).

I just reread your initial post.
You say that this "sluggish" response is when the engine is cold.
As you likely know the engine will respond differently while cold due to needing a warm up for optimal combustion and emissions.

How is the performance/response once the engine is warmed, after around 10-15 minutes of moderate driving?

Cold engine issues can be related to a number of things, but look to the items that are emissions related.
A reset could be resetting cold start parameters, but once the engine goes through a warm up cycle it will "learn" quickly to adjust for cold start, especially as it needs to for emissions.

Have you tried sport or sport+ mode with the more responsive throttle?
Take notice if that mode also goes sluggish.

Also, can you better explain what you mean by "sluggish" response?

[HighlandPete]

When you reset the gearbox adaptation values, they have to find their own values again. That is essential to control shift quality and gearbox protection.

I'm not a gearbox engineer, but do recall there is a specific procedure to take the transmission through, for the gearbox to re-learn its values, it is not just driving off and hoping for good results.

Certainly applied to the 6-speed when there were gearbox issues. A technician would take a car out and follow the re-learn procedure. I've seen it described by a gearbox specialist, (on another forum) where he outlined the test run and what is involved. I recall it is a closely controlled procedure and can take 30 minutes or more.

I read that some manufacturers have an adaptation mode, for re-learning the gearbox adaptations, it's a defined drive procedure within specific oil temperatures.

I personally believe the DIY reset mode, will just go back to where it was before, (or similar values), left to its own devices. Will be interesting to see the revised values when posted in the future.

HighlandPete

[DJ Rocc]

Originally Posted by otay

I don't know if coding SAT resets it, but the BMWAi program sure does. Just did it.

First screen shot shows selections from the "Tools" menu.


2nd screen shot was the initial adaptive values


3rd screen shot was after reset.


4th screen shot was after a drive around the block (felt very responsive, BTW. And I didn't really get on it.)



More to come!

How can I get BMWai for my 4 series?

[otay]

Originally Posted by RPM90

I just reread your initial post.
You say that this "sluggish" response is when the engine is cold.
As you likely know the engine will respond differently while cold due to needing a warm up for optimal combustion and emissions.

How is the performance/response once the engine is warmed, after around 10-15 minutes of moderate driving?

Cold engine issues can be related to a number of things, but look to the items that are emissions related.
A reset could be resetting cold start parameters, but once the engine goes through a warm up cycle it will "learn" quickly to adjust for cold start, especially as it needs to for emissions.

Have you tried sport or sport+ mode with the more responsive throttle?
Take notice if that mode also goes sluggish.

Also, can you better explain what you mean by "sluggish" response?

Been thinking about this. The lag was most apparent when pulling away from a stop sign first thing in the morning. But...now that I can reset whenever I want, I can definitely feel differences all the time. Upshifts and downshifts are more crisp and more often. Example: I'm on a 35mph street and start to go up a hill. Before reset, I'd have to give it more gas to downshift to maintain speed. Now, I can keep throttle the same, and it just downshifts and carries on.

I had nothing else to compare to, so could really only feel it when the differences were less subtle. Now that I can compare, it's easier to sense differences.

BTW, it's worse in Comfort mode, but still noticeable in Sport.

[otay]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

When you reset the gearbox adaptation values, they have to find their own values again. That is essential to control shift quality and gearbox protection.

I'm not a gearbox engineer, but do recall there is a specific procedure to take the transmission through, for the gearbox to re-learn its values, it is not just driving off and hoping for good results.

Certainly applied to the 6-speed when there were gearbox issues. A technician would take a car out and follow the re-learn procedure. I've seen it described by a gearbox specialist, (on another forum) where he outlined the test run and what is involved. I recall it is a closely controlled procedure and can take 30 minutes or more.

I read that some manufacturers have an adaptation mode, for re-learning the gearbox adaptations, it's a defined drive procedure within specific oil temperatures.

I personally believe the DIY reset mode, will just go back to where it was before, (or similar values), left to its own devices. Will be interesting to see the revised values when posted in the future.

HighlandPete

I'm sure it's more complicated than what I can see through the tool (or feel through the seat of my pants).

I believe there is something wrong with the car, probably was from day one. As I mentioned, they replaced the mechatronic at one point. My goal is to gather enough evidence to get them to fix it correctly (or...let me swap for a 340i ...yeah, that won't happen)

This morning, I checked the values before I left for work. They were all back to zero, even though a few of the values were changed after my short drive around the block last night. I guess I was expecting them to remain as they were after the short drive. But the car did behave as it has with values of zero: Car did not lag at that first stop, nor anytime on the way to work.

Will continue to monitor...

[otay]

Originally Posted by DJ Rocc

How can I get BMWai for my 4 series?

There's a link for another forum further up in the thread. You'll need that software, plus an ethernet to OBD cable (you can buy on Amazon, or elsewhere).

[RPM90]

I just read that the mechatronic was replaced in your car.
Seems I missed that earlier.
Was the mechatronic unit repaired when you owned the car?

I think you may need to call in your regional BMW tech rep/specialist.
They come around to different dealers in their area.
These are reps who are supposed to have greater technical knowledge and can address these types of driveability issues where the computer won't flag an actual problem.
They can also help by approving further diagnostics that can be time consuming and dealer techs want to avoid as often their diagnostic time won't be paid.

Have you driven other F30 335i's with sport AT so that you can compare?

[DJ Rocc]

Originally Posted by otay

There's a link for another forum further up in the thread. You'll need that software, plus an ethernet to OBD cable (you can buy on Amazon, or elsewhere).

I have a OBD cable, and have used the EZSys Software which I find a bit hard to use. The one above seems a bit more user friendly.

Thanks I will try the link.

[DJ Rocc]

Originally Posted by otay

There's a link for another forum further up in the thread. You'll need that software, plus an ethernet to OBD cable (you can buy on Amazon, or elsewhere).

Hey I went to link and registered, but when I downloaded the file it Windows Defender said it contained a Trojan Virus and it was deleted? Do you have one without the virus?

[otay]

Originally Posted by RPM90

I just read that the mechatronic was replaced in your car.
Seems I missed that earlier.
Was the mechatronic unit repaired when you owned the car?

I think you may need to call in your regional BMW tech rep/specialist.
They come around to different dealers in their area.
These are reps who are supposed to have greater technical knowledge and can address these types of driveability issues where the computer won't flag an actual problem.
They can also help by approving further diagnostics that can be time consuming and dealer techs want to avoid as often their diagnostic time won't be paid.

Have you driven other F30 335i's with sport AT so that you can compare?

Yes, the mechatronic was replaced in the spring (April, I think, don't have the repair order handy). This was after a prior trip to dealer about serious lag in between gears, where they just did the adaptation reset. That first time, it felt better when I left, but soon went to crap a couple days later. So when I went back, I drove it with the tech, and he agreed it was definitely not right. They called later that day and said they were going to replace mechatronic. After that, it did not have the very apparent delay between upshifts, so I kinda thought all was well.

What really got me going again recently, was that I was able to drive a co-workers almost identically equipped 2014 435i. I was like...holy shit, this car is much better. He drove mine and could tell it was off.

So took it in more recently, for similar complaint...where they said, "can't find anything, we reset the adaptation again".

I'm not faulting them, because I originally thought it was a cold start issue. Now I have more info. I'm going to do a few more days worth of measurements, then get it back in for service.

I appreciate all the discussion and information...

[otay]

Originally Posted by DJ Rocc

Hey I went to link and registered, but when I downloaded the file it Windows Defender said it contained a Trojan Virus and it was deleted? Do you have one without the virus?

Had the same issue, and posted about it there. You can see it if you read thru the last page or so of that forum. Turns out it's a false positive. On the laptop I use to connect to car, I had to turn off virus protection. Works fine.

Don't want to derail this thread, but if you figure out how to change the setting for the mirrors to fold when locking car, please PM me.

[DJ Rocc]

Originally Posted by otay

Had the same issue, and posted about it there. You can see it if you read thru the last page or so of that forum. Turns out it's a false positive. On the laptop I use to connect to car, I had to turn off virus protection. Works fine.

Don't want to derail this thread, but if you figure out how to change the setting for the mirrors to fold when locking car, please PM me.

Ok thanks will do!!

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by otay

Yes, the mechatronic was replaced in the spring (April, I think, don't have the repair order handy). This was after a prior trip to dealer about serious lag in between gears, where they just did the adaptation reset. That first time, it felt better when I left, but soon went to crap a couple days later. So when I went back, I drove it with the tech, and he agreed it was definitely not right. They called later that day and said they were going to replace mechatronic. After that, it did not have the very apparent delay between upshifts, so I kinda thought all was well.

...

I appreciate all the discussion and information...

So you have had a new mechatronic unit (under warranty?) and you are personally resetting transmission adaptation values!

I'd be back at the dealer and asking if they followed some form of Transmission Adaptation (Learn) Procedure. My understanding, this must be done for the adaptation values to be established.

Your attachments (screen shots) with 0 values for pressures and fill times are not how the transmission should be running after the learning procedure, I read that if any stay at 0 then the learn process is not complete. You don't want 0 'empty' memory cells, the transmission uses a sophisticated shift algorithm that includes the learned information. If it is not learned/relearned and/or is incomplete, (through a failed learning procedure) don't expect a smooth working transmission. Each clutch records the amount of time it takes to fill the clutch (Fast Filling Counter/Filling Time) and the amount of pressure (Filling Counter/Filling Pressure). These figures are logged in the memory cells as a result of the learning procedure and essential to proper gearbox function.

Continued resetting them back to 0 is not the solution, the box must learn the proper values, due to the repair work on the gearbox.

If you are going to do this yourself, you need to get the exact learning procedure, and follow it precisely, or you cannot expect to get a smooth working box with refined shifts.

All this has nothing to do with 'driver adaption', this is basic auto transmission adaptations, accommodating build tolerances and wear factors.

I'd be asking the dealer questions, not trying to do this yourself. From my understanding all you are doing thus far is resetting the values, but not going through the learning procedure.

HighlandPete

PS: I note in your original screen shot "Clutch D" has a 0 figure for fill time, that indicates your adaptations have never been fully learned. Perhaps someone more qualified than me could confirm that observation.

[otay]

An update:
- My co-worker with the '14 435i tried the reset and says it actually made his worse...now laggy, slow to shift. Sounds reasonable, if part of the adaptation is to accommodate for wear factors. He thought it might make his snappier, but...nope.
- Talked to dealer today, and it sounds like they really want to help. I told the SA I was resetting it myself, and that the differences after reset were very apparent. He said, "we'll do whatever we have to do, including replacing the complete transmission". Appointment is Wednesday.
- I found a "lag" situation that is fairly repeatable. When in Sport driving mode and accelerating with gentle throttle and reasonable speeds (35~45mph), there is a noticeable lag between gears when upshifting. So much so, that my head nods forward a bit because the car pauses in acceleration.

If anyone with N55 & 8AT who has an Enet-OBD cable and is willing to download the BMWAi software and let me know what their adaptation values are, I'd appreciate it. Also, happy to share all the numbers I have and how they've been changing.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by otay

An update:
- My co-worker with the '14 435i tried the reset and says it actually made his worse...now laggy, slow to shift. Sounds reasonable, if part of the adaptation is to accommodate for wear factors. He thought it might make his snappier, but...nope.
- Talked to dealer today, and it sounds like they really want to help. I told the SA I was resetting it myself, and that the differences after reset were very apparent. He said, "we'll do whatever we have to do, including replacing the complete transmission". Appointment is Wednesday.
- I found a "lag" situation that is fairly repeatable. When in Sport driving mode and accelerating with gentle throttle and reasonable speeds (35~45mph), there is a noticeable lag between gears when upshifting. So much so, that my head nods forward a bit because the car pauses in acceleration.

If anyone with N55 & 8AT who has an Enet-OBD cable and is willing to download the BMWAi software and let me know what their adaptation values are, I'd appreciate it. Also, happy to share all the numbers I have and how they've been changing.

Not at all surprised that clearing the transmission adaptation values, without the learning procedure, will leave some gearboxes all messed up.

I assume your dealer is going to take your car through the official transmission adaptation learning program and check the values. From my reading they can adjust adaptation values after the learning program, if particular characteristics exist. There are charts on fault finding and "how to fix" bad shift function.

Your lag issue clearly shows (to me) your gearbox requires to be put through the teach-in procedure. This is not accomplished by you simply driving around hoping for it to correct itself.

I notice in your software shots, there doesn't appear to be the 'count' listing. Reading Audi documents for the same gearbox they emphasis that there needs to be at least a count of 3 for each adaptation value, (fill and pressure). Unless that count is logged as happening, the transmission is not through the learning procedure. I'm sure this also applies to BMW, as it is referenced by several car makers who use the ZF gearbox.

I emphasis again, clearing and re-establishing transmission adaptation values is not resetting "driver adaptation". That looks after itself as we drive, but proper driver adaptation does depend on the transmission adaptations being set up for the particular transmission. Clearing values is only part of the process and simply driving around doesn't reset the values.

Again from reading the technical data, if after the proper transmission learning procedure is followed, and proven to be complete, the technician (using diagnostics), can tweak values to overcome any particular shift deficiencies that may still exist.

HighlandPete

[RPM90]

Clearly something is not right.
I would stick to having BMW fix or replace whatever they need to to correct it.

My 335i Msport with sport AT didn't feel right in manual mode after the first few months of owning it. I stayed away from using the manual mode as the auto mode was so darn good. But, when I wanted to try and use manual mode it sucked with jerky up shifts up to 4th gear. I took it in a couple of times and of course, "no problem found". The techs computer didn't tell him there is a problem so "no problem". Well, the trans in manual sucked. I just ignored it and drove in auto modes. Late this spring I had them look at it again as it felt worse and again no problem. I asked for a BMW field rep and that had a guy coming but his scheduled didn't fit mine so I never had a chance to meet with him.

By that point I knew I was going to get a different car so I just let it go.
I was VERY worried when I ordered my 340i as I didn't want to get another bad AT.
I have driven a large number of F30's with the AT and all of them were great except my 335i. So I took the chance with the 340i.
The sport AT in my 340i is excellent. Manual mode is rapid fire fast and smooth.
Auto mode is even smoother than in my 335i, and that's surprise as it was great in the 335i. The only kind of abrupt shift occurs in sport+ mode and everything is not fully warmed up. If I'm accelerating slowly and the trans holds the gear to around 4500rpm and then shifts. It's not bad just a bit abrupt. Once fully warmed it's much better.

These ZF AT's are great, but like you I hate it when it doesn't work like it should.
It makes the driving experience lackluster.
Keep at them to fix it right!

And, as Pete wrote, let the trans LEARN before resetting it all the time.
Then, if it still doesn't work properly take it back to the dealer and have BMW fix it.

[otay]

Update, as I need to vent.

Dropped it off on Monday (was originally going to be a couple weeks ago, but had to reschedule). As of today, Friday, they are still diagnosing.

Tuesday, I was told a regional field engineer was coming onsite to look at it. He apparently agreed it was out of spec prior to reset, and was better after reset. Yesterday, I was told that BMW wanted them to test the transmission fluid. The results this morning was that the fluid was OK, they communicated this to BMW and are awaiting further instruction.



I understand this is a complicated issue (and complex car), but #%@!%&!! I'm getting frustrated. Lemon law in NC is 20 or more days with the car out of service in a 12 month period. This is the 5th time it's been in this year for this issue and, by Monday the cumulative days will be 17.

My feeling is that this car has not been right since delivery. I called BMW customer service to ask what else can be done, and they said they'd research with the dealership and get back to me.

On a positive note, I like the 2015 328i loaner I'm in. The 8AT in this car works really well with the N20. Sport mode and manual mode are...fun!

[BavarianFanatic]

My transmission shifts exactly how I want, when I want, every single time. No "adaptations" required!

[otay]

Another episode in the continuing saga...

- Car has been at dealership since the morning of 11/9
- They've been asked by BMW to test the tranny fluid...twice now
- Finally got word this afternoon (**10** days later) that they will be replacing the complete transmission
- Also got word the "part is on back order". No idea yet on when it may be available. Was told they may know more tomorrow (but may not).
- Was made a cash offer by BMWNA for a payment roughly equal to 7 lease payments (but I've yet to see the document I'm told I'll have to sign)
- At this point, BMWNA is not willing to help me get into another new vehicle

Counting today the car has been in the shop for 22 days for this issue...over 5 different visits. This meets or exceeds the definition of a "lemon" in my state.

What would you do?

[gongtowjai]

Originally Posted by otay

Another episode in the continuing saga...

- Car has been at dealership since the morning of 11/9
- They've been asked by BMW to test the tranny fluid...twice now
- Finally got word this afternoon (**10** days later) that they will be replacing the complete transmission
- Also got word the "part is on back order". No idea yet on when it may be available. Was told they may know more tomorrow (but may not).
- Was made a cash offer by BMWNA for a payment roughly equal to 7 lease payments (but I've yet to see the document I'm told I'll have to sign)
- At this point, BMWNA is not willing to help me get into another new vehicle

Counting today the car has been in the shop for 22 days for this issue...over 5 different visits. This meets or exceeds the definition of a "lemon" in my state.

What would you do?

Consult with a lawyer and see if the the lemon law applies...ditch it, test drive a 340 to see if you like it, if so, order one...