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      10-15-2020, 01:26 PM   #4225
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Okay... I played with Virtual Dyno and found the custom car dialog box... I updated it to all the available info I had.. It's pretty accurate now... all runs were done with good timing, full tank,driver weight is included (I just included it in the profile of the car), same stretch of road etc... Very importantly the SAE (DA) has been adjusted for all runs... don't think we can get to much more accurate in comparisons... I did screen shots so you can see all data... included logs below....great comparison for stk Dp/ Fabspeed Dp... That Boostane 95map is no joke... considering when racing the car is in the upper rpm range (5100-6800+/-)... looks like the 95map is gonna finish first...color codes as follows....

Red:..... E20 FBO,Fabspeed Dp, stk turbo
Blue:.... 95map FBO,Fabspeed Dp stk turbo
Green:.. 95map stock Dp/ stk turbo

Here is the dyno run with Smoothing set at 1 which is basically Max Hp

Name:  E20_95_95stockDP.jpg
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Size:  295.1 KB

Here is the dyno run with Smoothing set at 6 which is basically the average over the rpm range...

Name:  E20_95_95stockDP_smoothing6.jpg
Views: 395
Size:  291.4 KB

Logs........

https://datazap.me/u/fastf30/log-160...27-28-29-30-31

https://datazap.me/u/fastf30/log-160...og=0&data=3-19

https://datazap.me/u/fastf30/log-157...og=0&data=4-16

P.s. the kick-back on the Red line is the car shifting gears.....

Last edited by FastF30; 10-15-2020 at 02:02 PM..
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      10-15-2020, 01:54 PM   #4226
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Since turbos compensate a bit for atmospheric conditions like DA, altitude, etc. by running more boost, I caution relying too much on DA calculators to correct for conditions as they are more intended for naturally aspirated motors. Yes, turbos are affected by DA, but not remotely close to that of a naturally aspirated car. Applying a DA calculator could give one false hope.

When I used to avidly drag race, I could see a difference of up to 0.7 seconds and 5mph between racing on a hot and humid 90 degree day (DA hovering in the 5,000' range) vs a cool and crisp 50 degree day (DA in the near sea level range). Same car, same track, same mods, same launch style, same 60 foot, etc. I never drag raced any of my turbo cars, but my friends with modded WRXs and EVOs saw maybe half the difference I did between good DA conditions and poor DA conditions.
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Last edited by XutvJet; 10-15-2020 at 02:00 PM..
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      10-15-2020, 02:25 PM   #4227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
Since turbos compensate a bit for atmospheric conditions like DA, altitude, etc. by running more boost,
Yes I'm aware of that... Drag Times DA calculator actually has 3 options just for that...
Stock aspirated
Modified aspirated
Forced Induction...

Temperature and humidity mostly affects it me being at sea-level...I'm assuming this to be the most accurate comparison besides being in controlled conditions lab considering the Barometer is pretty much the same.... guess I could figure out a percentage to take more accurate measurement... I'll cross numbers with Drag Times DA and see what the % difference is and adjust numbers accordingly...

Last edited by FastF30; 10-15-2020 at 03:33 PM..
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      10-15-2020, 03:31 PM   #4228
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Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
Since turbos compensate a bit for atmospheric conditions like DA, altitude, etc. by running more boost, I caution relying too much on DA calculators to correct for conditions

Okay ran some numbers thru some calculators and difference of -.8% for 95map .... so the Max Hp for 95map is 394whp compared to 397whp

E20 map was +.1% ... so max Hp for E20 map is 405.4whp compared to 405whp

So here is the updated Graphs..... 95map still looking good....

Name:  E20_95_95stockDP_Smooth 1 updated DA_Max Hp.jpg
Views: 386
Size:  299.0 KB

Name:  E20_95_95stockDP_Smooth 6 updated DA_Average Hp.jpg
Views: 384
Size:  297.7 KB

So is it worth it to me to go thru the headache of running E20?.... hmmmm

Last edited by FastF30; 10-15-2020 at 03:37 PM..
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      10-15-2020, 03:42 PM   #4229
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Originally Posted by FastF30 View Post
Okay ran some numbers thru some calculators and difference of -.8% for 95map .... so the Max Hp for 95map is 394whp compared to 397whp

E20 map was +.1% ... so max Hp for E20 map is 405.4whp compared to 405whp

So here is the updated Graphs..... 95map still looking good....

So is it worth it to me to go thru the headache of running E20?.... hmmmm
Have you seen my virtual dyno thread? I went back through all my logs and demonstrated the effect of different tunes and mods on power.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1710794

I would suggest posting there if you want to go deep into a virtual dyno discussion

Ill send you my VD parameters when i get home so you can cross reference with yours. I think i mentioned in my PM but i turned off all correction factors in VD and i would recommend doing the same as XutvJet mentioned. Otherwise you are just getting some positive scaling that may or may not be accurate. Also i find the numbers themselves more or less irrelevant and suggest only using as a tool to calculate the difference between runs (due to mods, etc).
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      10-15-2020, 04:05 PM   #4230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thejeremyman9 View Post
Have you seen my virtual dyno thread? I went back through all my logs and demonstrated the effect of different tunes and mods on power.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1710794

I would suggest posting there if you want to go deep into a virtual dyno discussion

Ill send you my VD parameters when i get home so you can cross reference with yours. I think i mentioned in my PM but i turned off all correction factors in VD and i would recommend doing the same as XutvJet mentioned. Otherwise you are just getting some positive scaling that may or may not be accurate. Also i find the numbers themselves more or less irrelevant and suggest only using as a tool to calculate the difference between runs (due to mods, etc).
Thanks...got all the info... but didn't see a comparison of the 95map and I just like to do this fun stuff... in the end... might just stick with the 95map unless I upgrade the HPFP since all this mixing thing is not fun... You can over mix Boostane and it won't crash your pump and holds the power better higher rpms...
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      10-16-2020, 12:17 AM   #4231
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Originally Posted by FastF30 View Post
Thanks...got all the info... but didn't see a comparison of the 95map and I just like to do this fun stuff... in the end... might just stick with the 95map unless I upgrade the HPFP since all this mixing thing is not fun... You can over mix Boostane and it won't crash your pump and holds the power better higher rpms...
Here's my VD specs for my car. Yours will be heavier, and tire height may also be different. This does not include cargo/passenger/my weight, i add that in on the main screen.
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      10-16-2020, 01:08 AM   #4232
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Originally Posted by thejeremyman9 View Post
Here's my VD specs for my car. Yours will be heavier, and tire height may also be different. This does not include cargo/passenger/my weight, i add that in on the main screen.
Thank you very much... all is same except for the D/C (.34) and Frontal area (24.65ftsq)... I used the M3 f80 auto specs that were in VD... figure I have the spoiler on it and now the roof spoiler

I used the weight of the car you gave me in an earlier discussion 3710 I think it was plus everything else... kinda all Dyno'd out right now... lol... Hopefully we can get some good logs from ZM2 plus location and date and we can look up the weather and get a good ballpark of what this new EWG E30 is doing.. very curious... I'll be posting over in your VD thread... just not tonight... got none left in me...I posted here first since this has to do directly with the 95/E20 MHD maps... definitely want to get deeper into this... Thanks for bringing this program to my attention...

P.s. curious what you'll run on a 95map... Probably gonna take a whole 32oz can of Boostane Professional for that 91octane you got out there... Lol...
P.s.s. I ran 12oz per tank on the fabspeed dp graph and 8oz per tank on the stock Dp graph... mixing 93octane... I figure the E20 map was 7oz B/P(just above 1/2 tank) diluted with 2.2gallons corn and rest 93 which put me maxed for the fuel pump... it crashed before it was thoroughly mixed I'm figuring.... I don't know... but it's all good now...

Last edited by FastF30; 10-16-2020 at 02:47 AM..
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      10-16-2020, 11:46 AM   #4233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FastF30 View Post
Thank you very much... all is same except for the D/C (.34) and Frontal area (24.65ftsq)... I used the M3 f80 auto specs that were in VD... figure I have the spoiler on it and now the roof spoiler

I used the weight of the car you gave me in an earlier discussion 3710 I think it was plus everything else... kinda all Dyno'd out right now... lol... Hopefully we can get some good logs from ZM2 plus location and date and we can look up the weather and get a good ballpark of what this new EWG E30 is doing.. very curious... I'll be posting over in your VD thread... just not tonight... got none left in me...I posted here first since this has to do directly with the 95/E20 MHD maps... definitely want to get deeper into this... Thanks for bringing this program to my attention...

P.s. curious what you'll run on a 95map... Probably gonna take a whole 32oz can of Boostane Professional for that 91octane you got out there... Lol...
P.s.s. I ran 12oz per tank on the fabspeed dp graph and 8oz per tank on the stock Dp graph... mixing 93octane... I figure the E20 map was 7oz B/P(just above 1/2 tank) diluted with 2.2gallons corn and rest 93 which put me maxed for the fuel pump... it crashed before it was thoroughly mixed I'm figuring.... I don't know... but it's all good now...
FYI putting higher DC and FA is going to increase you HP/TQ readings in VD because it thinks you have more air resistance. So in this case, using those might be giving you a non-conservative estimate, although its probably not as big of an effect as putting in higher weight. I too am running the Msport style front splitter and msport CF trunk spoiler, but didnt try to account for those. If i did, my HP/TQ would probably go up slightly, but as i mentioned before not worried about that just the delta between runs, and my actual #'s look every similar to dyno results that have been posted.
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      10-16-2020, 01:06 PM   #4234
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Originally Posted by thejeremyman9 View Post
FYI putting higher DC and FA is going to increase you HP/TQ readings in VD because it thinks you have more air resistance. So in this case, using those might be giving you a non-conservative estimate, although its probably not as big of an effect as putting in higher weight. I too am running the Msport style front splitter and msport CF trunk spoiler, but didnt try to account for those. If i did, my HP/TQ would probably go up slightly, but as i mentioned before not worried about that just the delta between runs, and my actual #'s look every similar to dyno results that have been posted.
Yea I understand all that..considering this was on my car and just comparing tunes I wasn't really concerned... good to know yours is similar to actual... that was one question I had... I'll be moving this over to the VD discussion... very very curious about BM3... ran blimmerboke's log (stage2 e30) without changing parameters and there was a significant difference to the point I really need to look into this further considering the difference I compared to one of your E20 log... again didn't change any parameters but the difference was enough to warrant getting more info from both you guys... temp/location etc... etc... moving over to VD thread before this gets to long...

Last edited by FastF30; 10-16-2020 at 01:13 PM..
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      10-21-2020, 02:53 AM   #4235
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So I was looking for logs and found this somewhere else... it's a MHD custom tune 92map... it's unreal... his Torque Nms are 40Nms higher than mine at 5800rpm (30hp)... that's crazy...it's gotta be that deviation that we were talking about before... gonna contact wedge see what they can do for the E20map.... wish I could download the .csv

https://bmw . spool street . com/graphs/n55-data-log-custom-tune-catless-dp.1578/

delete the spaces...

Last edited by FastF30; 10-21-2020 at 03:06 AM..
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      10-21-2020, 02:56 PM   #4236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FastF30 View Post
So I was looking for logs and found this somewhere else... it's a MHD custom tune 92map... it's unreal... his Torque Nms are 40Nms higher than mine at 5800rpm (30hp)... that's crazy...it's gotta be that deviation that we were talking about before... gonna contact wedge see what they can do for the E20map.... wish I could download the .csv

https://bmw . spool street . com/graphs/n55-data-log-custom-tune-catless-dp.1578/

delete the spaces...
I would not look at the torque nm between different logs on different cars at different times. There's no question that at some point the readings changed significantly even if the car wasnt actually making more torque (MHD app update is what we concluded i think?).

Also that didnt work when i deleted the spaces, you can PM me the link i think.
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      10-21-2020, 05:49 PM   #4237
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Originally Posted by thejeremyman9 View Post
I would not look at the torque nm between different logs on different cars at different times. There's no question that at some point the readings changed significantly even if the car wasnt actually making more torque (MHD app update is what we concluded i think?).

Also that didnt work when i deleted the spaces, you can PM me the link i think.
delete spaces around dots and between spool and street... just tried it and it was good... but probably as we discussed...
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      10-21-2020, 06:09 PM   #4238
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Originally Posted by FastF30 View Post
delete spaces around dots and between spool and street... just tried it and it was good... but probably as we discussed...
OK not sure why it didnt work before but i just looked at the log. The boost control looks awful, its significantly below target, as is load vs. target. The boost is falling off so much up top he either has a massive leak or is PWG, but it seems odd the boost target ramps up from about 19 to 22 psi in the upper RPM. Its also strange the HPFP is crashing if its truly only pump gas because my logs show similar boost and i am running E30 (his HPFP crashing at high 16psi range), and ive seen over 18 psi on the 91 map without HPFP dips. I dont want that tune, lol.
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      10-21-2020, 06:29 PM   #4239
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Originally Posted by thejeremyman9 View Post
OK not sure why it didnt work before but i just looked at the log. The boost control looks awful, its significantly below target, as is load vs. target. The boost is falling off so much up top he either has a massive leak or is PWG, but it seems odd the boost target ramps up from about 19 to 22 psi in the upper RPM. Its also strange the HPFP is crashing if its truly only pump gas because my logs show similar boost and i am running E30 (his HPFP crashing at high 16psi range), and ive seen over 18 psi on the 91 map without HPFP dips. I dont want that tune, lol.
I didn't look at it that deep... very good points... very strange on the crash for a 92 map as you said... what would of caused this is the question... boost and load are set very very high... but yea wgdc is 100% and boost is way to low no matter what target is... and the kid is all happy about it... lol...
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      11-01-2020, 06:48 PM   #4240
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thejeremyman9 In my search for throttle closing I came across this from BMS on throttle closure for EWG...

"For EWG models throttle is used to regulate boost. During normal operation the DME holds it in a position such that it's not causing a boost restriction (e.g. map and tmap boost match) and then if boost goes over target its progressively closed beyond that point to regulate manifold boost.

I think the mistake most people make is assuming the throttle is supposed to be always fully open under heavy throttle. It's not. It's supposed to be as closed as it can be WITHOUT causing a pressure drop. At higher RPM that might be 100% open but at lower RPM might only be 60% open."


I personally had a feeling about this for reviewing the logs you never see a drop in Torque Nms' when there is throttle closures...
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      11-01-2020, 09:58 PM   #4241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FastF30 View Post
thejeremyman9 In my search for throttle closing I came across this from BMS on throttle closure for EWG...

"For EWG models throttle is used to regulate boost. During normal operation the DME holds it in a position such that it's not causing a boost restriction (e.g. map and tmap boost match) and then if boost goes over target its progressively closed beyond that point to regulate manifold boost.

I think the mistake most people make is assuming the throttle is supposed to be always fully open under heavy throttle. It's not. It's supposed to be as closed as it can be WITHOUT causing a pressure drop. At higher RPM that might be 100% open but at lower RPM might only be 60% open."


I personally had a feeling about this for reviewing the logs you never see a drop in Torque Nms' when there is throttle closures...
Damn good looking out
It makes a lot of sense for sure just as you said
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      11-01-2020, 11:51 PM   #4242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FastF30 View Post
I didn't look at it that deep... very good points... very strange on the crash for a 92 map as you said... what would of caused this is the question... boost and load are set very very high... but yea wgdc is 100% and boost is way to low no matter what target is... and the kid is all happy about it... lol...
Exactly what we discussed before about different tuners (platform independent). Some just throw in a seemingly random load and boost target and let the car figure it out. Others does it properly - like Fabian from Pureboost.

Car might not drive any differently, but it is the difference between doing something 90 and 100% the way I see it.
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      11-02-2020, 12:33 AM   #4243
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Originally Posted by Pussiwillow View Post
Damn good looking out
It makes a lot of sense for sure just as you said
This is the way I see it... WG is set at a predetermined factor/ target/ safety basically so would be the Macro-adjustment... and the throttle plate is the micro-adjustment... reason being it is this way you can adjust much faster since their is always pressure behind the throttle plate and de-pressure since it's only dealing with the manifold and not the whole system... if you micro with the WG it has to fill the whole system or bleed the whole system to adjust boost which would be a time issue resulting in not as an accurate adjustment... Just my opinion
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      11-02-2020, 01:01 AM   #4244
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Originally Posted by harkes View Post
Exactly what we discussed before about different tuners (platform independent). Some just throw in a seemingly random load and boost target and let the car figure it out. Others does it properly - like Fabian from Pureboost.

Car might not drive any differently, but it is the difference between doing something 90 and 100% the way I see it.
The way I see it... it's the Goldielocks theory... not to little.. not to much... just right... everything goes hand in hand...

JerryBMW E85 log (Fabian) has:

at bottom end 21.3 target boost, 15timing, 86WG.... (rpm doesn't support major timing hence more boost)

at top end 17.5 target boost, 19timing, 95WG.... (rpm supports major timing... hence more timing since wastegate is at 95)

Disclaimer: I'm still getting into this and learning everyday... fun stuff... really enjoy doing this...

Last edited by FastF30; 11-02-2020 at 01:16 AM..
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      11-02-2020, 12:31 PM   #4245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FastF30 View Post
thejeremyman9 In my search for throttle closing I came across this from BMS on throttle closure for EWG...

"For EWG models throttle is used to regulate boost. During normal operation the DME holds it in a position such that it's not causing a boost restriction (e.g. map and tmap boost match) and then if boost goes over target its progressively closed beyond that point to regulate manifold boost.

I think the mistake most people make is assuming the throttle is supposed to be always fully open under heavy throttle. It's not. It's supposed to be as closed as it can be WITHOUT causing a pressure drop. At higher RPM that might be 100% open but at lower RPM might only be 60% open."


I personally had a feeling about this for reviewing the logs you never see a drop in Torque Nms' when there is throttle closures...
This is correct, but when looking at throttle closures in logs, its not that having <100% throttle is an issue, its more so looking for unusual behavior. So if your throttle is oscillating (open/close), or if you have a overboost and throttle closure when no one else running the same map/hardware is, etc, then that could point to an issue with your specific car. So it's really just looking at throttle control versus what is 'normal' and most common; if yours deviates, you could have some kind of other boost control or related issue.
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      11-04-2020, 11:16 AM   #4246
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Been thinking of pulling the trigger on the Ethanol maps and running the stage 2+ E20 map. Is it safe to say that this map will give you a little over 400whp? (yes I am one of those guys chasing numbers) I guess I am also wondering if my buttdyno will feel a significant difference? I am trying really hard not to go beyond FBO.

I know Bm3 made a stage2+ e30 map I wonder if mhd will do the same for the n55 platform. I thought I heard someone mention they were "working on it" in this thread or the bm3 thread (I honestly cant remember there's alot of pages to read) but im not sure.
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