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      04-29-2014, 06:03 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Your perception that most customers these days are like you and other forum participants is very, very far from reality. Even today 99 out of 100 customers know almost nothing before they set foot in the dealership.

Mloyalty's view is much closer to the reality of the business.

btw, invoice prices have been available to the public for 40+ years for those who cared enough to look. I've been using Edmunds since I was 16, back when it was a quarterly paperback. When I bought my first new car in 1982 I got it for invoice plus $300. I handed my salesman a typed order sheet that I modeled on the format of a window sticker with every option listed including both MSRP and invoice prices.
The invoice price is just a negotiating point anyway. What the dealer actually pays the manufacturer for the car (50% of invoice? 70? who knows) is something you won't find out without some inside help.
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      04-29-2014, 06:07 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falar View Post
The invoice price is just a negotiating point anyway. What the dealer actually pays the manufacturer for the car (50% of invoice? 70? who knows) is something you won't find out without some inside help.
And I'm sure varies greatly by dealership. It's a pretty complicated thing to figure it out since it includes other COST related things like the interest the dealer pays on cars that sit on lots for months (since I'd imagine most dealers use some sort of line of credit to purchase their inventory), marketing materials, etc.
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      04-29-2014, 06:09 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by falar View Post
The invoice price is just a negotiating point anyway. What the dealer actually pays the manufacturer for the car (50% of invoice? 70? who knows) is something you won't find out without some inside help.
Nope. The invoice prices that you find out there today are the prices the dealer pays the manufacturer.

There are manufacturer to dealer incentives mostly based on sales volume, but the amount the dealer has to pay to get the car into his inventory is the invoice price.
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      04-29-2014, 06:10 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by fecurtis View Post
And I'm sure varies greatly by dealership. It's a pretty complicated thing to figure it out since it includes other COST related things like the interest the dealer pays on cars that sit on lots for months (since I'd imagine most dealers use some sort of line of credit to purchase their inventory), marketing materials, etc.
I would imagine volume/dealership size plays a big part in it as well
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      04-29-2014, 06:23 PM   #27
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So do you agree with him that we shouldn't be a "mooch" and comparison shop for the best number? It's seems that you are a very informed buyer and would go elsewhere to get the best price.

My point wasn't regarding whether most people were informed or not. My point was that it's not bad to shop around for the best deal, especially since a salespersons main goal is trying to get the most money from you. When he commented that this was mooching, that caught my attention. I don't think a salesman would feel bad for me if I signed at MSRP, so I will not feel bad for him if I haggle the price down to invoice and he makes $200 or whatever Mloyalty said, or leave to buy somewhere else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Your perception that most customers these days are like you and other forum participants is very, very far from reality. Even today 99 out of 100 customers know almost nothing before they set foot in the dealership.

Mloyalty's view is much closer to the reality of the business.

btw, invoice prices have been available to the public for 40+ years for those who cared enough to look. I've been using Edmunds since I was 15, back when it was a quarterly paperback. When I bought my first new car in 1982 I got it for invoice plus $300. I handed my salesman a typed order sheet that I modeled on the format of a window sticker with every option listed including both MSRP and invoice prices.
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      04-29-2014, 06:55 PM   #28
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So do you agree with him that we shouldn't be a "mooch" and comparison shop for the best number? It's seems that you are a very informed buyer and would go elsewhere to get the best price.

My point wasn't regarding whether most people were informed or not. My point was that it's not bad to shop around for the best deal, especially since a salespersons main goal is trying to get the most money from you. When he commented that this was mooching, that caught my attention. I don't think a salesman would feel bad for me if I signed at MSRP, so I will not feel bad for him if I haggle the price down to invoice and he makes $200 or whatever Mloyalty said, or leave to buy somewhere else.

I think a lot of folks on forums like these are inclined to try to squeeze blood out of a turnip and are willing to grind down good sales people (as opposed to idiotic sales people) for every nickel they can and then, if they find a much less competent sales person who will cut the price by another nickel, dump the good guy to save that extra nickel on their $50,000 car.

Last edited by tturedraider; 04-29-2014 at 07:50 PM..
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      04-29-2014, 07:09 PM   #29
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A few hundred dollars is nothing compare to a loyalty you get for a SA that will come to your house to fix the Universal garage door opener to work in your car.

This is my sales person, Brian. He is the best person I have seen in the car business, ever. His time and service can't be had for $200. If you just want someone to give you the key and say so long but you saved maybe $500, look for someone else.

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      04-29-2014, 07:18 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Mloyalty View Post
A few hundred dollars is nothing compare to a loyalty you get for a SA that will come to your house to fix the Universal garage door opener to work in your car.

This is my sales person, Brian. He is the best person I have seen in the car business, ever. His time and service can't be had for $200. If you just want someone to give you the key and say so long but you saved maybe $500, look for someone else.

http://reach150.com/bmw-of-mountain-...an-bakhshandeh
Sometimes you can get the best deal and still have outstanding customer service, they are not mutually exclusive.

If Brian takes care of you that well and his prices are that competitive (you used $200 as an example, I agree that is pennies over the course of a 3 year lease) then I can see why you are very satisfied.
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      04-29-2014, 07:21 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Mloyalty View Post
A few hundred dollars is nothing compare to a loyalty you get for a SA that will come to your house to fix the Universal garage door opener to work in your car.

This is my sales person, Brian. He is the best person I have seen in the car business, ever. His time and service can't be had for $200. If you just want someone to give you the key and say so long but you saved maybe $500, look for someone else.

http://reach150.com/bmw-of-mountain-...an-bakhshandeh
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      04-29-2014, 07:27 PM   #32
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Hey if you get that kind of service then I would tend to agree that is worth something. I guess here in the northeast that type of service doesn't exist. Here we are used to being squeezed and taken advantage of, slick talking and sales tactics.

To have the financial guy trying to sell me the wheel protection plan and giving me some bogus scare story about being in the car with his family and hitting a pothole and blowing out 2 tires on the BQE and not being covered by the protection plan and I shouldn't make that same mistake, boo hoo. Then to hear someone else here in the forums get the exact same story from his dealership financial guy, kinda makes you a bit jaded to the whole car salesmanship situation

I haven't had much experience with salespeople going out of their way like that, nor caring too much beyond signing the deal and getting as much money as possible. Different experiences I guess.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Mloyalty View Post
A few hundred dollars is nothing compare to a loyalty you get for a SA that will come to your house to fix the Universal garage door opener to work in your car.

This is my sales person, Brian. He is the best person I have seen in the car business, ever. His time and service can't be had for $200. If you just want someone to give you the key and say so long but you saved maybe $500, look for someone else.

http://reach150.com/bmw-of-mountain-...an-bakhshandeh
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      04-29-2014, 07:53 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by jonkarn View Post
Hey if you get that kind of service then I would tend to agree that is worth something. I guess here in the northeast that type of service doesn't exist. Here we are used to being squeezed and taken advantage of, slick talking and sales tactics.

To have the financial guy trying to sell me the wheel protection plan and giving me some bogus scare story about being in the car with his family and hitting a pothole and blowing out 2 tires on the BQE and not being covered by the protection plan and I shouldn't make that same mistake, boo hoo. Then to hear someone else here in the forums get the exact same story from his dealership financial guy, kinda makes you a bit jaded to the whole car salesmanship situation

I haven't had much experience with salespeople going out of their way like that, nor caring too much beyond signing the deal and getting as much money as possible. Different experiences I guess.
I guess it's different around silicon valley. Most of their customers are Google, Apple and other high tech companies. They treat people with respect.
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      04-29-2014, 08:47 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Mloyalty View Post
I guess it's different around silicon valley. Most of their customers are Google, Apple and other high tech companies. They treat people with respect.
I think that's a huge reason as to why you are getting the service you are getting. I would say your experience is certainly the exception rather than the norm.

I live in an area that is very much NOT the same clientele and every sales person I have met around here is clueless. It isn't meant as a personal attack against all salespeople but I think the turnover rate around here is so high that no one ever knows anything of significance about the product they are selling. Or they just blatantly lie.

Base Mazda 3 has Recaro seats? Seems legit. European Delivery sales are a fixed $200 profit to the dealer, so we'd lose money if we did an ED sale below MSRP? Seems legit. "We can't negotiate on the price since we just marked it down two days ago," even though I've seen the same price for the last month and a half? Seems legit. "No, you can get this car with cooled seats" as we are driving around in the absolutely top-most trim level Altima... I just give up.

I really, really wish I could find an honest, knowledgeable salesperson in my area but I've learned to accept I never will. For BMWs I'm sold on buying from the names you see here on the forums. My last purchasing experience was done this way and I can't see myself ever going back. It was painless and most of all, fair.
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      04-29-2014, 09:01 PM   #35
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I guess it's different around silicon valley. Most of their customers are Google, Apple and other high tech companies. They treat people with respect.
Oh now this is rich. Working for a "high tech" company makes you royalty that the peasants need to kiss up to?

Pretty funny.
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      04-29-2014, 10:56 PM   #36
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Oh now this is rich. Working for a "high tech" company makes you royalty that the peasants need to kiss up to?

Pretty funny.
Yeah who knows. Mr. Royalty might be upper holy class so you never know.

I think the joke is on whoever is ready to leave extra $$$ on the table in a deal. This is applying charity thinking to the business world, this is not gunna cut the mustard.
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      04-29-2014, 11:24 PM   #37
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Ok it's a mooch fest in here. I'm out...
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      04-29-2014, 11:33 PM   #38
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I typed up a long detailed response, because…



The key points are (yes, this is the short list)
  • I sold Acura's for four years in the 90s at two different Acura dealers. If you could only see what transpired at Prestige Level Dealerships, Excellence Circle, blah, blah.
  • Depending on the dealership’s compensation structure and the individual’s sales volume, the salesperson can receive 20%-30% or more of gross profit. $5k over invoice? You do the math. I once "earned" $565 per hour on a deal that took a total of three hours. Not the norm, but not rare - think new model launch.
  • “Minimum deals” - our flats were $100
  • “Dealership support” comes in many forms - not just on a per vehicle basis like rebates, holdbacks, etc. There is fuzzy accounting that obscures the “true cost” the dealer pays for the car.

There is no way I’ll ever trust "car guys". My experience has taught me that the car business is full of wolves in sheep's clothing. Too many wolves to be trusting in nature. Sure there are some good ones, even great ones. But the bad far outweigh the good.

Has anyone commenting on this thread actually sold cars for a living?
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      04-30-2014, 12:19 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerQuest View Post
I typed up a long detailed response, because…



The key points are (yes, this is the short list)
  • I sold Acura's for four years in the 90s at two different Acura dealers. If you could only see what transpired at Prestige Level Dealerships, Excellence Circle, blah, blah.
  • Depending on the dealership’s compensation structure and the individual’s sales volume, the salesperson can receive 20%-30% or more of gross profit. $5k over invoice? You do the math. I once "earned" $565 per hour on a deal that took a total of three hours. Not the norm, but not rare - think new model launch.
  • “Minimum deals” - our flats were $100
  • “Dealership support” comes in many forms - not just on a per vehicle basis like rebates, holdbacks, etc. There is fuzzy accounting that obscures the “true cost” the dealer pays for the car.

There is no way I’ll ever trust "car guys". My experience has taught me that the car business is full of wolves in sheep's clothing. Too many wolves to be trusting in nature. Sure there are some good ones, even great ones. But the bad far outweigh the good.

Has anyone commenting on this thread actually sold cars for a living?

Yes. Before the internet era and during the internet era.
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      04-30-2014, 08:26 AM   #40
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Yes THIS! Thank you for the backup. I started thinking maybe I AM a "mooch" for trying to get the lowest possible price. And when I found out about the high tech company employees getting more respect from the dealerships, then I just started feeling inferior altogether!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerQuest View Post
I typed up a long detailed response, because…



The key points are (yes, this is the short list)
  • I sold Acura's for four years in the 90s at two different Acura dealers. If you could only see what transpired at Prestige Level Dealerships, Excellence Circle, blah, blah.
  • Depending on the dealership’s compensation structure and the individual’s sales volume, the salesperson can receive 20%-30% or more of gross profit. $5k over invoice? You do the math. I once "earned" $565 per hour on a deal that took a total of three hours. Not the norm, but not rare - think new model launch.
  • “Minimum deals” - our flats were $100
  • “Dealership support” comes in many forms - not just on a per vehicle basis like rebates, holdbacks, etc. There is fuzzy accounting that obscures the “true cost” the dealer pays for the car.

There is no way I’ll ever trust "car guys". My experience has taught me that the car business is full of wolves in sheep's clothing. Too many wolves to be trusting in nature. Sure there are some good ones, even great ones. But the bad far outweigh the good.

Has anyone commenting on this thread actually sold cars for a living?
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      04-30-2014, 08:32 AM   #41
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THIS too!

It's dog eat dog out there. Let them suck the blood of the uninformed and pushover sorts. I'm not letting them take any extra of my hard earned money. If they don't want to make a little bit less on the sale, they can pass on my requests. I had a couple of dealers say they couldn't match the other guys. That's ok with me, I will find one who is willing to.

If the dealership needs to move more cars that month, or week, they will be more willing to come down to my price. Like I said, it's all a GAME. Chess match if you want to be more sophisticated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ft1330 View Post
Yeah who knows. Mr. Royalty might be upper holy class so you never know.

I think the joke is on whoever is ready to leave extra $$$ on the table in a deal. This is applying charity thinking to the business world, this is not gunna cut the mustard.
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      04-30-2014, 10:14 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerQuest View Post
I typed up a long detailed response, because…



The key points are (yes, this is the short list)
  • I sold Acura's for four years in the 90s at two different Acura dealers. If you could only see what transpired at Prestige Level Dealerships, Excellence Circle, blah, blah.
  • Depending on the dealership’s compensation structure and the individual’s sales volume, the salesperson can receive 20%-30% or more of gross profit. $5k over invoice? You do the math. I once "earned" $565 per hour on a deal that took a total of three hours. Not the norm, but not rare - think new model launch.
  • “Minimum deals” - our flats were $100
  • “Dealership support” comes in many forms - not just on a per vehicle basis like rebates, holdbacks, etc. There is fuzzy accounting that obscures the “true cost” the dealer pays for the car.

There is no way I’ll ever trust "car guys". My experience has taught me that the car business is full of wolves in sheep's clothing. Too many wolves to be trusting in nature. Sure there are some good ones, even great ones. But the bad far outweigh the good.

Has anyone commenting on this thread actually sold cars for a living?
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      05-01-2014, 09:47 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob55555 View Post
Hello All,

Despite the fact that I am obsessed with performing my due diligence with respect to new purchases, including my vehicles, I am not an active member of any of the various online automotive forums, as is evident by my non-existent post count.

Nevertheless, I was so thrilled with my recent experience with David Aviles at Steve Thomas BMW that I thought I had to share my encounter with others in an effort to pay it forward to those in the market for a vehicle (and David, who impressed the crap out of me and my girlfriend).

By way of background, I would describe myself as a "serial car leaser". As I mentioned to David, we lease a handful of BMWs every three years. Further, while I have worked with a number of dealerships in Southern California, including Beverly Hills BMW, Rusnak, Encinitas BMW, BMW of San Diego and Santa Monica BMW, to name only a few, I was never satisfied enough with the level of service and requisite haggling to the point where these other dealerships were able to consistently recapture my repeat business.

My recent experience in ordering and leasing a 2014 435i was memorable in that the negotiating process was transparent and did not entail any haggling whatsoever. Additionally, the signing of the necessary paperwork took minutes. Finally, and most importantly, the deal itself was impeccable.

I encourage you to at least give David a call or shoot him an e-mail (which is how I communicated with him) prior to leasing/purchasing a BMW at any other dealership. My understanding is that he can get you a vehicle irrespective of your geographic location.

Having that said, I ordered a 2014 435i M-Sport in Mineral Grey Metallic, with Coral Red Dakota Leather, Aluminum Hexagon Trim, Driver Assistance Package and Driver Assistance Plus, Premium Package, Technology Package, M Sport Brakes, Heated Front Seats and the Power and Performance Package.

Although I am still breaking in the vehicle, it has been a blast thus far. I am especially excited about the PPK. I understand this is a controversial addition amongst the enthusiast community.

Hopefully my brief review will encourage those of you who wouldn’t have otherwise contacted David to reach out to him prior to finalizing a deal with anyone else. I will certainly give him my business in the future and I hope that I receive the same level of service I received this past weekend.

B
awesome! Congrats on the car and on behalf of all of us at Steve Thomas BMW thank you for your business!

enjoy the new ride
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      05-01-2014, 10:01 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob55555 View Post
Hello All,

Despite the fact that I am obsessed with performing my due diligence with respect to new purchases, including my vehicles, I am not an active member of any of the various online automotive forums, as is evident by my non-existent post count.

Nevertheless, I was so thrilled with my recent experience with David Aviles at Steve Thomas BMW that I thought I had to share my encounter with others in an effort to pay it forward to those in the market for a vehicle (and David, who impressed the crap out of me and my girlfriend).

By way of background, I would describe myself as a "serial car leaser". As I mentioned to David, we lease a handful of BMWs every three years. Further, while I have worked with a number of dealerships in Southern California, including Beverly Hills BMW, Rusnak, Encinitas BMW, BMW of San Diego and Santa Monica BMW, to name only a few, I was never satisfied enough with the level of service and requisite haggling to the point where these other dealerships were able to consistently recapture my repeat business.

My recent experience in ordering and leasing a 2014 435i was memorable in that the negotiating process was transparent and did not entail any haggling whatsoever. Additionally, the signing of the necessary paperwork took minutes. Finally, and most importantly, the deal itself was impeccable.

I encourage you to at least give David a call or shoot him an e-mail (which is how I communicated with him) prior to leasing/purchasing a BMW at any other dealership. My understanding is that he can get you a vehicle irrespective of your geographic location.

Having that said, I ordered a 2014 435i M-Sport in Mineral Grey Metallic, with Coral Red Dakota Leather, Aluminum Hexagon Trim, Driver Assistance Package and Driver Assistance Plus, Premium Package, Technology Package, M Sport Brakes, Heated Front Seats and the Power and Performance Package.

Although I am still breaking in the vehicle, it has been a blast thus far. I am especially excited about the PPK. I understand this is a controversial addition amongst the enthusiast community.

Hopefully my brief review will encourage those of you who wouldn’t have otherwise contacted David to reach out to him prior to finalizing a deal with anyone else. I will certainly give him my business in the future and I hope that I receive the same level of service I received this past weekend.

B
Thanks Bob!! I and the team really appreciate it. We're thrilled you took delivery of your new 435i and hopefully you got through most of the break-in by now. It was great to meet you and Mrs. bob in person.

I wish you many miles of driving enjoyment, especially with the MPPK!

All the best,
David
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