[///CSL]

What do you guys think about this

https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-...i-review/30963

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-project-f22-228i

Has anyone driven this much modified 335/435i and M2/3/4 so that can compare those?

M is really beast, I get it, but when you think about it, aside from drivetrain/engine, chassis is similiar, biggest difference would be the suspension.

How close 435i with new coilovers, sway bars, m3/4 lcas, camber plates, wider tires, drexler/giken LSD, brakes would be on track with m2/3/4? There is around 35-40000$ difference between used 435i and m4 (in Europe), it seems that M cars don't depreciate at all :O So for around 10k one can modify 435i with alot of suspension goodies.

How stiffer/better would be that modified 435i better than stock, and how far from M car?

It can't be the same as m4 (but if it is similiar to e46 m3, than that would be great ), but is it significantly stiffer and capable of couple track days a year? let's say around 5 times/year. How about n55 reliability, oil starvation, overheating issues?

[enjoythemusic]

Sounds to me like you want an M car, yet trying to find a less costly (in the end) workaround. The M and the 435i drive differently, with the M having some more advanced bits the 435i will never have (electronic diff to name one). Frankly, save up a bit more and get an M. Personally, wanted more lux with some performance so for me IMHO the 435i works out better. Lastly, the M is engineered by the factory to work well as A SYSTEM. Modding a car is not just choosing expensive bits, but carefully choosing items to meet the goal you desire while WORKING WELL together. If you want more performance and track oriented drive, imho get the M. If you want a nice DD cruiser that has good performance, then mod away a 435i. But as you surmised, the M will retain far more resale value than a modded 435i.

JM2C

[///CSL]

I agree but still, used M4 is 100% more expensive than 435. I already mentioned that difference for used is more than 30k $. That is not ''a bit more'', that is whole new category

There are a lot modded cars here with those bits, people are praising them in terms of better driving feel, I would like to see if someone have all the mentioned parts for verdict. Or at least LSD, coils and swaybars. That will probably make biggest difference. Sorry for bad English

[enjoythemusic]

Your English is excellent! Yes, you can make a 435 handle like (more or less stiff) than an M4. If you're asking if you can make a 435i better than an M car, YES only if by using the word "better" you mean more towards your goal of what **you** want the car to be. So yes the 435i can be better than an M in that regard to some extent.

The N55 engine and auto tranny seem like a solid package. Just remember the newer engine M4 is capable of higher HP/TQ than a 'sanely tuned' N55.

So basically yes the 435i can be modded to be as stiff or more compliant a suspension as you desire, even more-so than the M4. Just remember to get the good tuning stuff because, well, cheap mods to me always turn out being a mistake. Do it right the first time.

[///CSL]

Thanks!

That's what I wanted to hear It really doesn't need to be M4, but after 10k quality parts (properly installed and aligned), I would expect it to be more on the M4 side than on stock one. And it would be primarily DD with couple track days/year and probably a lot spirited driving daily, but not dedicated (every weekend) track car

I'm actually thinking about M235i also, but that rear end, idk it just doesn't look right. 4 series have great profile and rear, and probably better interior. And I would change m235i suspension too so it boils down only to couple kilograms of difference in terms of weight. I think 435 is less than 100kg heavier than m235i.

Coilovers, LSD, M4 LCAs, Brakes and new sway bars would probably make biggest difference in terms of handling.

[Lancelot]

Interesting discussion, I'm on the same boat, thinking I could make my AH3 become closer to an M3 in terms of handling, and M3 power is within reach of a reprog.
FWIW, a number of enthusiasts have actually made trackday "1M" from E8x 135i, simply because 1M being a limited model few people wanted to alter it and make it lose value, but that shows that this is indeed possible if you have funds and time.

What happened to me is that without going that far, when you pull that thread, you never manage to reach that target, and it is more and more elusive:
- Getting LCAs is good, but it distorts the geometry, and for me made the car too sensitive to crosswinds for some reason.
- So then consider changing your entire subframes for M3 subframes (because why not?)
- But then you would need wider wheel fenders, as the M3 subframe with its F80 LCA/TS have wider track.
- With the rear subframe you need the M LSD to fit. But the M LSD requires M electronics.
- So then you need an F80 DSC, but that probably won't work properly with F30 ECUs

In the end from one thing to another you end up to this conclusion that this is a system as enjoythemusic said, which you cannot replicate that easily.

My conclusion from this experience was:
If you can, get an M2/M3/M4

If not an option then :
0/ Start from an M sport model basis (additional oil coolers and better air intake) with N55/B58 engines
1/ Make sure you have good tyres - Michelin PSS, PS4S are often recommended. - $800
2/ Change coilovers first before anything else, and don't go cheap - i like my KW DDC for EDC cars, Ohlins have superb reputation... a good set will do wonders: Lowering the center of gravity, increasing your camber (therefore turn in), improving aerodynamics, I hadn't realized all of that before. Don't do the ARBs until you have let your coilovers settle and find your marks with the new behaviour.
- $2500
3/ Fit an LSD, M Performance or Quaife - $2500
4/ Do a good remap - $1000
5/ Get struts tower bar - $200 to $1500 for the full M3 set, these will help keep the car body tightly controlled.

All in all you get something rather decent and enjoyable for $7000; not quite the same thing, but still rather exciting.

[///CSL]

Hmm, nice list and interesting tips. Did you find LCAs messing too much with geometry? Nobody mentioned that yet and it is pretty common modification on 1/2 series forums, is it different for F32?

Another ''problem'' is that I like luxury line 4 coupe, M sport doesn't appeal that much to me, what are another differences between that and M sport besides intake/cooler? I think m sport have different sway bars also.

How much negative camber KW gives you?

[Lancelot]

I'm not sure how LCAs affect this crosswind sensitivity on different models, but at highway speed that was really annoying for me.
Not every car is identical and mine seems to be born with a bit of cross caster - OR that was introduced when we lowered the subframe to put ARBs and put it back.

Now with coilovers lowering i'm at -0°40' camber at the front and very little cross camber, -1°30' at the back.
If I were to chase another half degree of camber I'd choose the OEM alternative wheel hubs with -30min correction, this way no messing up with TS/LCAs.

[///CSL]

I've seen some of your topics. You have LSD, ARBs, strut brace and coilovers.

After all that how do you like your AH3? You have driven M2, how do you see stock f30, your modded and m2 from handling perspective?

[Lancelot]

I've got KW DDC coilovers since February which are fantastic, but I'm removing H&R ARBs: too much downside, the ride is very uncomfortable, and the traction isn't good: stiffer ARBs actually result in less suspension independence, and therefore less grip at the back.

I believe with KW coilovers and back to stock ARBs would bring me closer to the M2 feel as I remember it. I feel the AH3 has potential to be very well balanced if properly suspended, i'm just not there yet, but I known I can't aim for the same M3 feel of precision and control, I learnt that just isn't possible.

[///CSL]

Yeah that would be a bit too much to expect. I will follow what are you doing, I'm really interesting in progress and future results

[///CSL]

Lancelot I saw your posts about subframe differences between F80 and F30 subframe. I wonder if you know differences between Luxury F32 and M sport. Both suspension and drivetrain/engine wise?

So far swaybars, shocks, dampers, springs, intake, oil cooler are different, anything else?

And, would someone need camber plates if F80 ts and Lcas are installed? What about toe links, rear upperlinks, subframe bushings? Not expensive parts, are they worth it?

[Lancelot]

As far as I know dampers/springs are a function of the suspension option (704 sport suspension, 2VF adaptive suspension), not necessarily the M sport / Luxury variant but perhaps that is country dependent.

And, would someone need camber plates if F80 ts and Lcas are installed? What about toe links, rear upperlinks, subframe bushings? Not expensive parts, are they worth it?

Camber plates move the suspension arm inwards at the top, LCAs move the suspension arm outwards at the bottom to achieve camber, so no need for both.

As for rear subframe, solid subframe bushings sound like a good idea but they are apparently a pain to remove, may not be expensive in parts but very expensive in labor. I suspect only hardcore track guys will find a significant difference, the rest of us will notice increased noise and vibration.

Regarding rear upperlinks I haven't heard about anyone having done anything to them; you can change bushings, or opt for camber adjustable arms, but then again I suspect none of that is really necessary except for dedicated track toys, with lowering by rear is at -1°30' rear camber which is fine, more than that and I'll reduce contact patch size and traction.

Here again the F80 suspension geometry is so different. No bushings, completely different arms, V shaped braces link the subframe to body... Nothing you can really replicate.

[///CSL]

I saw people changing them on 1 and 2 series forums and they are thrilled with the results, also this guy (links below) done it on E90. If I am going to do it it will probably be all together because of expensive labour.

Really interesting (and expensive) project

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=322185
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=379775
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=788638
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=590096

You are right about Luxury it probably can be found with sport suspension, but what if doesn't have one, do you know differences between stock suspension/drivetrain settings and m sport?

[Lancelot]

Good finding

But note that it seems to me (I know less about the E9x Platform) that the E90 M3 had much more in common with a 335i than an F80 has in common with an F30 335i.

I think with the F80 ///M division took much more freedom with subframes than they did on the E9x and what was true of the E9x is no longer valid with the F3x.

So the E9x M3 had different link arms, bushings, but made to fit the same attachment points on suspension geometry. That no longer holds with F8x. Their subframes don't even have bushings to begin with, the rear links geometry is vastly different, the front arms attachment points are not at the same point in space...

[///CSL]

How do you mean that F80 doesn't have bushings? What is this

https://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-F80-M3.../Rear/Bushing/

[Lancelot]

Listing error (just look at what other cars this fits ;-)); F8x subframes are directly bolted and use no bushings.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1086476

[///CSL]

Oooh yeah, you're right. Great info, I was mistaken because I've been reading another guy's 135i topic, but that was E82 platform, not F car. What solid bushings actually do? Does they change behavior and geometry or they are just better quality and allow other suspension components to work better?

As for these 4 parts do you think they are overkill on F platform?

-rear guide rods
-toe links
-tension rods
-rear upperlinks

For now this is what I found that mot people are thrilled with

1. LSD
2. Coilovers
3. Sway bars (needed for nonMsport suspension cars)
4. Strut brace
5. LCA + TS + Spacers
6. Solid bushings (?maybe)

Thank you for helping me out to learn more about this, I really appreciate it

[Lancelot]

Originally Posted by ///CSL

Does they change behavior and geometry or they are just better quality and allow other suspension components to work better?

The bushings will isolate the car body from the road, theoretically reducing comfort/increasing noise, but also dampening car response.
I've seen several times people mentionning the loss of comfort was insignificant and the handling improvement was good. This apparently requires that your base car has a very good body - which is the case of the F30 - as it's going to take more load.

Originally Posted by ///CSL

As for these 4 parts do you think they are overkill on F platform?

-rear guide rods
-toe links
-tension rods
-rear upperlinks

I have no first hand knowledge for this, all I can say is i've never read anyone here saying that was a must except if you have extreme camber correction needs.

Originally Posted by ///CSL

For now this is what I found that mot people are thrilled with
1. LSD
2. Coilovers
3. Sway bars (needed for nonMsport suspension cars)
4. Strut brace
5. LCA + TS + Spacers
6. Solid bushings (?maybe)

Remember to do them one at a time and let the impression sink in before moving to the next, e.g. coilovers may very well negate the need for all the next mods if they are very good, and the rest might go in the opposite direction. Or don't do spacers at the same time as doing LCAs, as each of them will push your wheel out.

Now if you have time (and a bit of money to spend), it's actually an interesting journey to make your own experience, mistakes included - sway bars and solid bushings are very expensive mistakes to make in terms of labor costs because you pay them twice if you need to revert, while parts are wasted only once

Sway bars also remember their strength increases with the 4th power of their diameter, so stock is 12mm if you go for 16mm stiffness increases 3.16 times, supposing they have the exact same length for each part. Each mm counts a lot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-roll_bar

Originally Posted by ///CSL

Thank you for helping me out to learn more about this, I really appreciate it

Happy to help, it's only my take on this based on first hand experience and second hand knowledge, others will think differently, have different experiences.

[///CSL]

I was thinking of doing all at same time because of LSD, I think LSD install requires dropping subframe so that would be ideal time to do sways and bushes. I think that base suspension sway bars are really tiny, significantly thinner than on M sport and alot thinner than M3s.

Anyway I get what you wanted to say, definitely something to think about properly before doing, especially about solid bushes, it may not be required. I wonder what alpina doing with their B3 and B4. I think that they use ohlins coils, but I have no idea about sways, lsd and bushing details.

[Lancelot]

Do yourself a favor and do the coils first, then see what need you have for anti-roll bars.

Damn you got me started again with those subframe bushings, seeing that i'm removing the H&R bars I'm thinking of putting powerflex blacks or delrin bushings. Seeing that i'm not about to swap for an M3 before at least another year I think I'm getting the modding bug again :-/

Anyone has opinions on powerflex blacks vs. delrin? powerflex probably easier to source for me than delrin, being in Europe.

[///CSL]

AHahhaha sorry man Most ironic thing is that I even don't have a 435i, just considering that N55 and researching in advance before doing anything.