[JNW1]

Interesting little article on Pistonheads comparing the Kia Stinger GT-S and a BMW 440i.

https://www.pistonheads.com/features...0i-coupe/37077

Over £40k for a Kia does seem to be pushing it a bit but I've got to say the comment about the standard chassis set-ups on some current BMW's falling short of the standard expected does strike a chord. BMW built their reputation on making cars that are good to drive so if the 4-series really is second best in that respect to an upstart from Korea perhaps it's time for BMW to wake-up and get back to basics?

[JustChris]

A better drive....really...? Maybe this is a bit of journo sensationalism? Reviews I'd read said the opposite but either way its a very bold and odd move for Kia to move into:-

1) A market segment nailed up by ze germans and their imperious PCP offers based on residuals Kia as a brand cannot match

2) Looking to expand in a shrinking market, the saloon. SUV/CrossOvers are booming and saloons not so much. The Sportage (according the guys I bought Mrs JustChris Sportage from) saved the Kia brand in the UK/Europe.

The key difference moving from £19-£27k CrossOVer to a £40K+ salon is the PCP/lease market. Am I gonna spunk £19k on a solid but unspectacular car for the family that will last about 5 years. Hell Yeah I did and thousands in the UK did, its the Sportage.

Am I gonna spunk £40+k cash on any Kia. NOPE!!! Ok so lets looks at PCP....ahh right so I can get a nicely kitted 5 series for less? Game Over.

So unless there is a decent market out there of people looking to buy a £40k cash Kia.....I cannot see it working out?


Or maybe I'm just all doom and gloom on Monday

What says ye of Bimmerpost?

[MarkG_M5Comp]

My observations:

"...no staggering highs but crucially no terrible weaknesses either"

This is where BMW loses it; reviewers have higher expectations of a BMW and as such notice immediately any deficiencies.

"...even before switching to the BMW some hesitation and inconsistency in the powertrain's decisions can be felt."

This is just the sort of thing that can be forgiven on a test drive but would drive you up the wall in ownership - and lead to you hating the car!

I can't help but repeat that what is killing BMW handling is us, the public. For years people complained that BMWs were firm and harsh - which is what made them handle and drive like 'The Ultimate Driving Machine'. BMW fix it by making them softer and we all bitch because other do it better.

There is someone sat in an R&D lab in Munich screaming at us!

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by Lobb

I'm most concerned about the volume of spunk you squirted there. As I am still in bed

I'm a healthy 'young' chap Lobb. Lets just say it went down really well in the Kia dealership.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by MarkG_M3CP

My observations:

"...no staggering highs but crucially no terrible weaknesses either"

This is where BMW loses it; reviewers have higher expectations of a BMW and as such notice immediately any deficiencies.

"...even before switching to the BMW some hesitation and inconsistency in the powertrain's decisions can be felt."

This is just the sort of thing that can be forgiven on a test drive but would drive you up the wall in ownership - and lead to you hating the car!

I can't help but repeat that what is killing BMW handling is us, the public. For years people complained that BMWs were firm and harsh - which is what made them handle and drive like 'The Ultimate Driving Machine'. BMW fix it by making them softer and we all bitch because other do it better.

There is someone sat in an R&D lab in Munich screaming at us!

Spot on Mark. Sadly the sheer quantity of soft drivers speaks volumes (pun intended yeah why not) to the BMW board. I suspect an enthusiast who LOVES a BMW also keeps that car longer say 5-7 years, owning outright and adding mods etc etc. Why not have everyone turning over cars every 3 years on a company PCP?

Once the company car market came into real force, real BMWs were doomed. The board would be foolish not to play to those economics.


************************************************** ******************************************
How about Hyundai though? I think next gen of their 'N' cars could get very very interesting. I can't recall his name but the ex BMW 'M' chief is there now as we all know. If he has a free reign and real input into the next set of cars without the need for heavy luxury options to go into cars it could get interesting.

I really want to see a LOT of weight saving into the next gen G20 M3/4. All the hype around Carbon Core for me has totally vanished since the 7 series. I thought CFRP was the future but no chassis since the 7 has even had it mentioned, whats going on? Light weight = pureness and pure win in sports driving.

[bimmer456]

BMW will turn more heads.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by MarkG_M3CP

I can't help but repeat that what is killing BMW handling is us, the public. For years people complained that BMWs were firm and harsh - which is what made them handle and drive like 'The Ultimate Driving Machine'. BMW fix it by making them softer and we all bitch because other do it better.

There is someone sat in an R&D lab in Munich screaming at us!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not for one second suggesting the Kia would make for a better ownership proposition than the BMW!

However, based on experience with my current car I do find some of the criticism of the 440i's chassis entirely believable. Moreover, what annoys me is BMW could easily address this by (say) fitting similar specification springs to those offered by people like ACS; probably wouldn't cost any more, would have no significant adverse affect on ride quality but would preserve the handling for which many of us buy a BMW in the first place.

So while there may be people sat in an R&D lab in Munich screaming at us there's also a fair few here screaming at them!

[moff]

I'm in a minority but I totally agree with the PistonHead comments on Adaptive suspension. I personally dislike it for exactly the reasons they provide, too soft and wallowy in Comfort and too hard in Sport. I much prefer the LCI revised stock M Sport suspension.

The Kia however is dead in the water given the amazing 440i discounts, the stronger residuals, the better MPG, and much lower CO2. That's without even considering dealer support, interior quality, iDrive and everything else.

[InquisitiveA]

The KIA could be unequivocally better in respect of handling, steering, gear changes, power, interior comfort etc etc etc, AND be £10k cheaper,....and it would still struggle!

If you bought the KIA every time someone asked you what you drove your answer would have to be followed by a 5 minute justification on your choice. In the executive market that matters, it shouldn't but it definitely does.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by InquisitiveA

The KIA could be unequivocally better in respect of handling, steering, gear changes, power, interior comfort etc etc etc, AND be £10k cheaper,....and it would still struggle!

If you bought the KIA every time someone asked you what you drove your answer would have to be followed by a 5 minute justification on your choice. In the executive market that matters, it shouldn't but it definitely does.

With respect you and one or two others have ever so slightly missed the point I was trying to make!

I'm not trying to justify the Kia as the better purchase, I was just using it to illustrate that BMW have to some extent dropped the baton in an area which was always one of their traditional strengths (i.e. a good chassis which makes a car enjoyable to drive).

Therefore, the issue for me isn't whether I would buy that particular Kia - I certainly wouldn't - it's whether I'll be more inclined to look at a manufacturer other than BMW given they no longer appear to lead the way in an area of design which I regard as important.

Answer is I probably will look elsewhere but that doesn't mean I won't end-up with another BMW!

[KCH1984]

Originally Posted by JNW1

Moreover, what annoys me is BMW could easily address this by (say) fitting similar specification springs to those offered by people like ACS

This - I get your point. You really shouldn't have to fix your £40k BMW with a set of £250 springs. Definite ball-drop on BMW's part. Will be interesting to see what the G series cars are like, especially those with Xdrive and whether 'standard' M Sport suspension will be offered.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by KCH1984

This - I get your point. You really shouldn't have to fix your £40k BMW with a set of £250 springs. Definite ball-drop on BMW's part. Will be interesting to see what the G series cars are like, especially those with Xdrive and whether 'standard' M Sport suspension will be offered.

We have to remember the 3/4 series xDrive models were introduced to the UK as all-weather vehicles, like other markets, hence the higher suspensions. The fact that many want the same RWD 'M-sport setup' with xDrive in the F3x generation, is more than BMW have ever offered.

BMW are moving it forward. The G3x 5-series, indicates BMW are moving to xDrive with 'M-sport setups', suspension options no longer an issue. Sure the G2x models will get the same M-sport suspension options.

[Sasquartch]

Regarding the comment about no-one ever wanting to pay £40k for a Kia

There is one massive difference between Kia and BMW is the warranty, 3 vs I believe 7 years. Given how expensive BMW services are and the real possibility of a big bill after the 3 years warranty on a BMW is up the Kia might still make sense to some.

A few years ago, say around 2000 Hyundai / Kia made cheap and nasty cars. They don't any more. Maybe bland but definitely not nasty.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

We have to remember the 3/4 series xDrive models were introduced to the UK as all-weather vehicles, like other markets, hence the higher suspensions.

I - and I suspect many other buyers of M-Sport X-Drives - were anticipating the traction benefits of 4WD but still in a car that handled in the way you'd expect from a BMW. To use Audi as a comparison, I was thinking the chassis on an F31 335d X-Drive would be more akin to an S4 Avant than an All Road!

[JD6]

Out of interest I have been trying to get a price for a used Kia Stinger GT-S from WBAC and similar car buying sites, using the car in the article and a 66 plate one. Very sensibly they all refuse to quote, which probably gives some indication of what happens when you decide to sell your Kia.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by JNW1

I - and I suspect many other buyers of M-Sport X-Drives - were anticipating the traction benefits of 4WD but still in a car that handled in the way you'd expect from a BMW. To use Audi as a comparison, I was thinking the chassis on an F31 335d X-Drive would be more akin to an S4 Avant than an All Road!

I sense it was a case of model specifications and marketing getting mixed up a bit. Particularly confusing to those looking at the sporty intentions of the 335d 'performance' models.

The US xDrive market being well established with the E9x, has I suppose influenced the current design specification. The E9x series xDrive models never had lowered suspension, continued into the F3x models. At least the UK market didn't get All-season tyres.

[Canary_Yellow]

Originally Posted by JD6

Out of interest I have been trying to get a price for a used Kia Stinger GT-S from WBAC and similar car buying sites, using the car in the article and a 66 plate one. Very sensibly they all refuse to quote, which probably gives some indication of what happens when you decide to sell your Kia.

I would have thought that would be the case for any car that there isn't yet a market for to be fair.

[InquisitiveA]

Originally Posted by Sasquartch

Regarding the comment about no-one ever wanting to pay £40k for a Kia

There is one massive difference between Kia and BMW is the warranty, 3 vs I believe 7 years. Given how expensive BMW services are and the real possibility of a big bill after the 3 years warranty on a BMW is up the Kia might still make sense to some.

A few years ago, say around 2000 Hyundai / Kia made cheap and nasty cars. They don't any more. Maybe bland but definitely not nasty.

That there can form part of your 5 minute justification of your purchase to any curious parties...

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by KCH1984

This - I get your point. You really shouldn't have to fix your £40k BMW with a set of £250 springs. Definite ball-drop on BMW's part. Will be interesting to see what the G series cars are like, especially those with Xdrive and whether 'standard' M Sport suspension will be offered.

G10/11 7 Series are not riding higher with X Drive
G30 5 series is not riding higher with X Drive
G20 3 series TBC but we expect the same.......

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by JustChris

G10/11 7 Series are not riding higher with X Drive
G30 5 series is not riding higher with X Drive
G20 3 series TBC but we expect the same.......

All good news but the chassis shortcomings in some BMW's don't appear to be just a consequence of X-Drive. For example, to go back to the original article on this thread, the 440i Pistonheads tested was an S-Drive yet it was apparently less enjoyable to drive along a twisty road than the Kia (which in itself was by no means perfect).

Might just be me but personally I think BMW could - and should - be doing better....

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by JNW1

All good news but the chassis shortcomings in some BMW's don't appear to be just a consequence of X-Drive. For example, to go back to the original article on this thread, the 440i Pistonheads tested was an S-Drive yet it was apparently less enjoyable to drive along a twisty road than the Kia (which in itself was by no means perfect).

Might just be me but personally I think BMW could - and should - be doing better....

Yes agreed, I was probably answering the more historical X-Drive springs and ride height debacle.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by JNW1

Might just be me but personally I think BMW could - and should - be doing better....

The subject of "doing better" is an interesting one, as BMW do offer an M Performance suspension option for the 3/4 series RWD models.

Is there anyone who has optioned and/or fitted the OEM M Performance suspension, if so how does it compare to stock M-sport suspension?