[apascutia]

Hello all,
I hope everyone is doing well. I had a day off today and I decided to find some fun driving roads to explore with my 328i. I live in Michigan, around the West Bloomfield area. There aren't too many fun roads around here. However, I found a great set of roads north around the Holly/Walled Lake area. I recently drove a 2007 BMW 328i on those roads, and I was really impressed by the body control, engine, and the overall car. I wanted to see how my F30 would compare on those same roads. As I discussed in previous posts, I believe the base F30 is underdamped with its body motions to the point where it becomes annoying in lower speed corners. I wanted to see if the F30 could compare to the E90 in terms of fun. I put it in sport mode, and as I started going through the faster corners, the car finally started to come alive. I kept the engine on boil by keeping it in 3rd-5th instead of 6th, and the pulling power is great. As I was going through these corners a little quicker than I normally would have gone, the steering started speaking to me. I could actually tell what certain parts of the road felt like through the wheel, and as I accelerated out of the corners, the whole car just felt planted. In these higher speed corners, the body feels relatively flat, and it inspires confidence. Unfortunately, if you go over some rougher parts of the road, things do get a little bouncy, but you still feel in control. I was genuinely impressed by how the car felt when you started pushing it. It genuinely felt rear drive, and the steering wasn't completely numb. Honestly, if you don't go on some fun twisties every now and then, you almost forget that you're driving a 3 series. If the car isn't pushed, I start noticing all of the weak points of the F30. In an E90, you don't have to push the car to make it feel special. The engine sounds great, the steering is tight and communicative, and the body of the car feels like an expensive tailored suit on you. From the numb steering to the uninspiring sounds from the 4 cylinder, the F30 can sometimes feel dull. Mind you, my car is an early build (2012) with the premium package and the 6 speed. It doesn't have the sport package, but older 3 series' didn't need the sport package to corner relatively flatly and have good steering feel. Granted, I still like my car. It gets great fuel economy, and it's a comfortable daily driver. Not to mention that it's been very reliable for a BMW. As I was blasting through those roads earlier today listening to 90s trance music, it was almost like the car was begging me to go faster. It felt at home on those roads, and it was genuine fun. It's interesting how when going through sharp slow corners (roundabouts), the car rolls and doesn't feel sporty at all. Once you start pushing it on longer sweepers at higher speeds, the car feels SO much better. I just wish that the steering was less numb. As the F30 comes to its end of production soon, I hope BMW can bring back more of what made older 3 series' great, and keep what made the F30 good (reliability, good looks, and interior ergonomics). An important thing to note: I believe the car would be much less fun if it wasn't a manual. You connect to the car on such an intimate level when you see a fun corner and decide that you want to clutch-in and downshift unnecessarily just to wind the engine out. I really hope the G20 will still come with a manual. This is a trait that makes the F30 unique compared to many of its competitors. I had fun today
Thanks for reading!

[LMK5]

That's a good experiment. I totally agree that the F30 feels just way too loose at normal driving speeds. Lack of body motion control is the one facet of the car I really don't like. I also feel BMW will have to make the G20 much more composed than the F30. In my MY2017 330i--which is definitely improved over the MY2014 I had--it really struggles on cambered/ridged roads, making very sharp lateral movements. It feels almost unstable when cornering on rippled roads, where you can feel the rear end sidestep to the outside. They've got to improve this on a car at this price.

I do agree that when you start to push it it feels more impressive, but I'd rather have that locked in feeling at everyday speeds.

[apascutia]

Originally Posted by LMK5

That's a good experiment. I totally agree that the F30 feels just way too loose at normal driving speeds. Lack of body motion control is the one facet of the car I really don't like. I also feel BMW will have to make the G20 much more composed than the F30. In my MY2017 330i--which is definitely improved over the MY2014 I had--it really struggles on cambered/ridged roads, making very sharp lateral movements. It feels almost unstable when cornering on rippled roads, where you can feel the rear end sidestep to the outside. They've got to improve this on a car at this price.

I do agree that when you start to push it it feels more impressive, but I'd rather have that locked in feeling at everyday speeds.

Thanks for your comment! I wonder if this is because BMW tried to soften the car to appeal to more people. If so, they did it wrong. There are plenty of cars out there that handle well while being comfortable. Combine run flat tires with this suspension and it turns into a mess sometimes. It definitely begins to feel like a proper BMW once you start pushing it.

[Kafkaesque328]

My car seems to feel better the harder I push it. Picture dude, post pictures

[apascutia]

Originally Posted by Kafkaesque328

My car seems to feel better the harder I push it. Picture dude, post pictures

I might post pictures tomorrow. I see you went from a 14 320i to a 16 328i. Any differences in handling and feel between them?

[LMK5]

Originally Posted by apascutia

Thanks for your comment! I wonder if this is because BMW tried to soften the car to appeal to more people. If so, they did it wrong. There are plenty of cars out there that handle well while being comfortable. Combine run flat tires with this suspension and it turns into a mess sometimes. It definitely begins to feel like a proper BMW once you start pushing it.

I think in an effort to soften up the car, they aimed to take out the harshness, but they really overshot the mark. I find the bobbing and weaving of the F30 to be decidedly uncomfortable. Maybe trying to tune a suspension while using run flat tires is a losing proposition? I know the C300 and the Giulia also use run flats and I'd like to test them to see how successful they were at making the suspension achieve a better ride/handling balance. FWIW, I've always found that Honda does a wonderful job of achieving that balance.

This reminds me of a few years ago when Toyota wanted to stiffen up the Avalon to appeal to more buyers. They also over-corrected and there were lots of complaints from the faithful. They did correct this in the next year though.

[KGB_123_99]

All the BMWs I ever drove seem to come alive around 85 MPH.

[jtbazz]

I have to say that the handling and steering on the f30 is atrocious. I love my 340 and the steering is my only complaint. Since I don't track the car and I'am rarely on back roads I will live with the handling. I traded in my MK7 Golf R for my 340i and the R would eat this car alive on back roads. The R felt like you were superglued to the road. Do I regret getting rid of the R, not really. Did it handle better, yes. Just not sure what BMW engineers were thinking.

The 340 is a much more refined vehicle and there are other attributes to the car other than handling..... the B58 engine is sublime.

[apascutia]

Originally Posted by jtbazz

I have to say that the handling and steering on the f30 is atrocious. I love my 340 and the steering is my only complaint. Since I don't track the car and I'am rarely on back roads I will live with the handling. I traded in my MK7 Golf R for my 340i and the R would eat this car alive on back roads. The R felt like you were superglued to the road. Do I regret getting rid of the R, not really. Did it handle better, yes. Just not sure what BMW engineers were thinking.

The 340 is a much more refined vehicle and there are other attributes to the car other than handling..... the B58 engine is sublime.

I would LOVE to try out the B58 engine. I've only heard excellent things about it. It sounds great, and I heard that it actually pulls until redline, where the N55 would somewhat fall flat. I also read that the B58 went back to a mechanical water pump. I think BMW learned with the electronic water pumps of the E90. The ideal combo would be the dynamics and size of the E90 coupled with the reliability of these newer cars. I do love the rear wheel drive feeling of the F30, though.

[apascutia]

Originally Posted by LMK5

I think in an effort to soften up the car, they aimed to take out the harshness, but they really overshot the mark. I find the bobbing and weaving of the F30 to be decidedly uncomfortable. Maybe trying to tune a suspension while using run flat tires is a losing proposition? I know the C300 and the Giulia also use run flats and I'd like to test them to see how successful they were at making the suspension achieve a better ride/handling balance. FWIW, I've always found that Honda does a wonderful job of achieving that balance.

This reminds me of a few years ago when Toyota wanted to stiffen up the Avalon to appeal to more buyers. They also over-corrected and there were lots of complaints from the faithful. They did correct this in the next year though.

I actually did get to drive a Giulia. A relative of mine had one overnight and I drove it more extensively. The size of the car reminds me so much of the E90. It just feels more compact. The steering is razor sharp. Believe it or not, the steering wasn't the most impressive part of the package. In terms of feedback, I felt that it was similar to the F30. The body control and comfort were balanced sublimely. It handled better than the F30, yet it was much more comfortable. There are downsides, unfortunately. First, the interior felt a step or two below the F30 in term of materials. It honestly felt similar to a Ford Fusion. The F30 isn't even that great in that regard, but the Giulia still feels worse inside. Secondly, the engine isn't close to the refinement of the N20/B48. Much more turbo lag and the power band is narrow. The brake pedal was not linear at all. Lastly, no manual transmission. To me, the manual is what makes the F30 enjoyable. It's too bad they took the manual out for the US market in the Giulia.

[apascutia]

Originally Posted by KGB_123_99

All the BMWs I ever drove seem to come alive around 85 MPH.

That definitely applies to the F30. If you don't push it, it feels like pretty much any other commuter car.

[Fuller]

When I first got my previous F30 335i with base suspension, I found that sport mode was a must. In comfort mode the steering was so light and vague, and the car felt so unsettled, it inspired little confidence to push the car in the least. When I pushed the car in sport mode it felt much better. I agree with the op that you have to work a bit to get the most from the f30 with base suspension. I loved the low end torque though. It definitely feels quicker than a 300 hp, 300 lb ft car should. At times it felt like the n55 was more engine than the base suspension could contain.

I'm now driving a 435i xdrive gc with msport and "dynamic handling" and it's a completely different feel. The dynamic handling package comes with the msport adaptive dampers and vss. I've seen a lot of mixed reviews on vss, but it didn't take long to get used to, and I actually like it. The car corners flat, feels connected to the road, and even gives some steering feel and feedback. At higher speed the steering feels connected to the chassis in a way that's not typical of electronic power steering systems. It's somewhat unfair to compare this car to my 335i since it had the base suspension, but the 4 series does have a wider stance and lower center of gravity. These are changes that should, theoretically, give better handling. I think many reviews on the 4 series were too busy poking fun at the current bmw nomenclature, and that the 4 series retailed for a couple grand over the 3 series, and glossed over what the 4 series has to offer in terms of driving dynamics and feel. For anyone looking for an f30 3-series, I recommend cross shopping and test driving the 4 series as well. If you require four doors, the 4 series gran coupe is worth looking at. The standard msport suspension or msport adaptive suspension are worth prioritizing as well.

[apascutia]

Originally Posted by Fuller

When I first got my previous F30 335i with base suspension, I found that sport mode was a must. In comfort mode the steering was so light and vague, and the car felt so unsettled, it inspired little confidence to push the car in the least. When I pushed the car in sport mode it felt much better. I agree with the op that you have to work a bit to get the most from the f30 with base suspension. I loved the low end torque though. It definitely feels quicker than a 300 hp, 300 lb ft car should. At times it felt like the n55 was more engine than the base suspension could contain.

I'm now driving a 435i xdrive gc with msport and "dynamic handling" and it's a completely different feel. The dynamic handling package comes with the msport adaptive dampers and vss. I've seen a lot of mixed reviews on vss, but it didn't take long to get used to, and I actually like it. The car corners flat, feels connected to the road, and even gives some steering feel and feedback. At higher speed the steering feels connected to the chassis in a way that's not typical of electronic power steering systems. It's somewhat unfair to compare this car to my 335i since it had the base suspension, but the 4 series does have a wider stance and lower center of gravity. These are changes that should, theoretically, give better handling. I think many reviews on the 4 series were too busy poking fun at the current bmw nomenclature, and that the 4 series retailed for a couple grand over the 3 series, and glossed over what the 4 series has to offer in terms of driving dynamics and feel. For anyone looking for an f30 3-series, I recommend cross shopping and test driving the 4 series as well. If you require four doors, the 4 series gran coupe is worth looking at. The standard msport suspension or msport adaptive suspension are worth prioritizing as well.

I couldn't agree with you more about the msport suspension. I didn't post on here, but a few months ago I drove a 2014 335i manual msport while my car was getting serviced, and it felt more focused. I don't understand why so many reviewers didn't like the F30 with the N55. An inline 6 just feels right in a BMW. I don't know if it was just me, but it seemed like the manual was better paired to the N55 than the N20. With my car, it's difficult to get the 1-2 shift right without making it abrupt. Two years ago, I got to drive a 428i with the auto transmission, and thinking back it did feel tighter than my F30. I still recall not liking the feel of the steering too much. While I love manuals, the ZF 8 speed is brilliant in the way that it shifts quickly.

[Michael Schott]

I live in Farmington Hills and know those roads. Unfortunately the traffic out there has become so bad that it's rare that you can drive as fast as needed to take enjoy the curves. If you don't mind a bit of a drive, there are some really good roads west of Ann Arbor as well. Car and Driver has a route they use out there.

As far as the F30, I had a 2014 328i equipped as sporty as possible. RWD, 704 suspension and MT. The suspension and control was fine, with a far better ride than my 2011 E90 but the steering feel was a mess. I remember the disappointment I felt when I was in the Hudson, OH area and drove a beautiful road that led to a Metropark. There was just no sense of what the front tires were doing. The E90 had fabulously communicative steering.

[apascutia]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

I live in Farmington Hills and know those roads. Unfortunately the traffic out there has become so bad that it's rare that you can drive as fast as needed to take enjoy the curves. If you don't mind a bit of a drive, there are some really good roads west of Ann Arbor as well. Car and Driver has a route they use out there.

As far as the F30, I had a 2014 328i equipped as sporty as possible. RWD, 704 suspension and MT. The suspension and control was fine, with a far better ride than my 2011 E90 but the steering feel was a mess. I remember the disappointment I felt when I was in the Hudson, OH area and drove a beautiful road that led to a Metropark. There was just no sense of what the front tires were doing. The E90 had fabulously communicative steering.

Thanks for letting me know! I'll look into that. As for your car, the body control and dynamics are much better with the msport suspension. But like you said, the steering feel just isn't there. And that's such a large part of the experience.

[apascutia]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

I live in Farmington Hills and know those roads. Unfortunately the traffic out there has become so bad that it's rare that you can drive as fast as needed to take enjoy the curves. If you don't mind a bit of a drive, there are some really good roads west of Ann Arbor as well. Car and Driver has a route they use out there.

As far as the F30, I had a 2014 328i equipped as sporty as possible. RWD, 704 suspension and MT. The suspension and control was fine, with a far better ride than my 2011 E90 but the steering feel was a mess. I remember the disappointment I felt when I was in the Hudson, OH area and drove a beautiful road that led to a Metropark. There was just no sense of what the front tires were doing. The E90 had fabulously communicative steering.

I forgot to mention that the police force near Ann Arbor isn't forgiving of spirited driving. I received an ugly ticket in that area a few months ago in a Chevrolet SS. That story is for another time, and on a totally unrelated note, the SS is a brilliant car

[Fuller]

I haven't driven an e90 328 or 335i, but I did have the opportunity to take an e92 m3 for a good spin. The steering was better than the current eps systems, but it didn't feel worlds better to me. It loaded in a nice linear fashion, but it wasn't particularly tactile. It was an older car so that might explain it to some extent. That said, winding that beast up to high rpm was an experience I won't soon forget. I don't want to try an e90 328/335i at this point. I don't want to spoil my impression of my current car.

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by apascutia

I forgot to mention that the police force near Ann Arbor isn't forgiving of spirited driving. I received an ugly ticket in that area a few months ago in a Chevrolet SS. That story is for another time, and on a totally unrelated note, the SS is a brilliant car

How did you like that 6.2L LS3? I have some experience with the SS. I liked having it in 3rd gear and getting that LS3 to roar. That's a motor that really shows its character at 4000+ rpm. Much different than a bmw (at least the 3 and 4ers I've driven), but a lot of fun in its own way. Some do say it's similar to the e39 m5, but I haven't driven the e39 so I can't say how it compares to that car. It's a shame though that the Holden plant was closed and we won't get another ss/commodore.

[BillyTheBimmer]

I too drove backroads a few times recently (one at night to test light/visibility) here in Ontario, Canada and experienced it with my recently purchased cpo stock 2013 328i xdrive (sport). I must preface i chose a bmw based on the ultimate driving experience and somewhat hastily ignored test-driving audi and mercedes - searching for a 'driver' type of car.
Oh well, no looking back now lol - Downloaded some cool maps from online biker and driving fanatics and put them on my phone.

Pretty large variety of lengths/speeds and turn types, and was a great way for me to feel like i'm letting my car stretch its legs. I use it as a daily commuter to downtown and is more than enough to command lanes, but these backroads really brought out that driving value/experience that i've been reading about. IMO it was a blast when in sport/sport +. I agree that when in comfort or eco, the steering is much softer, so just this weekend i got Steve from codemybimmer to give me chassis config in sport, and the SAT(2TB) coding. Now i can't wait to get back there

That said , though i haven't had the opportunity to drive the older bimmers with the firmer feel, I did get a 330i loaner with steering (in comfort/eco) that felt even more soft and disengaged. Sport plus was great but wasnt too big a fan of the coasting. Op, what sort of speeds on turns were you working with? Long stretch or snakey 60-80km type?

[apascutia]

Originally Posted by BillyTheBimmer

I too drove backroads a few times recently (one at night to test light/visibility) here in Ontario, Canada and experienced it with my recently purchased cpo stock 2013 328i xdrive (sport). I must preface i chose a bmw based on the ultimate driving experience and somewhat hastily ignored test-driving audi and mercedes - searching for a 'driver' type of car.
Oh well, no looking back now lol - Downloaded some cool maps from online biker and driving fanatics and put them on my phone.

Pretty large variety of lengths/speeds and turn types, and was a great way for me to feel like i'm letting my car stretch its legs. I use it as a daily commuter to downtown and is more than enough to command lanes, but these backroads really brought out that driving value/experience that i've been reading about. IMO it was a blast when in sport/sport +. I agree that when in comfort or eco, the steering is much softer, so just this weekend i got Steve from codemybimmer to give me chassis config in sport, and the SAT(2TB) coding. Now i can't wait to get back there

That said , though i haven't had the opportunity to drive the older bimmers with the firmer feel, I did get a 330i loaner with steering (in comfort/eco) that felt even more soft and disengaged. Sport plus was great but wasnt too big a fan of the coasting. Op, what sort of speeds on turns were you working with? Long stretch or snakey 60-80km type?

It was a bit of both. The snakey 60-8km portions were really great if I had the car in the right gear so I could blast out of the turns. It was a lot of fun. I was in sport mode the entire time.

[apascutia]

Originally Posted by Fuller

How did you like that 6.2L LS3? I have some experience with the SS. I liked having it in 3rd gear and getting that LS3 to roar. That's a motor that really shows its character at 4000+ rpm. Much different than a bmw (at least the 3 and 4ers I've driven), but a lot of fun in its own way. Some do say it's similar to the e39 m5, but I haven't driven the e39 so I can't say how it compares to that car. It's a shame though that the Holden plant was closed and we won't get another ss/commodore.

I absolutely loved it. The sound was great and it pulled like a freight train. It also had the best EPS system I've used so far. There was so much feedback and the guys at Motor Trend weren't exaggerating when they called it the best sport sedan. I loved every bit of it. Ok, maybe not the cheaper interior, but WHO CARES. When a car is sorted out so well dynamically and it's so fun to drive, the interior isn't that important. The magnetic ride was really good. You could genuinely tell when you changed modes. And it was LOUD for a stock car. It's genuinely one of my favorite cars!

[apascutia]

Originally Posted by Fuller

I haven't driven an e90 328 or 335i, but I did have the opportunity to take an e92 m3 for a good spin. The steering was better than the current eps systems, but it didn't feel worlds better to me. It loaded in a nice linear fashion, but it wasn't particularly tactile. It was an older car so that might explain it to some extent. That said, winding that beast up to high rpm was an experience I won't soon forget. I don't want to try an e90 328/335i at this point. I don't want to spoil my impression of my current car.

I haven't tried an M3 out yet, but if you tried an E90, you would just notice the better steering and the wonderful response of the naturally aspirated 6. The whole car just feels like an extension of you. It's too bad that it's getting harder and harder to find good ones.