[Billfitz]

You can use foam or vinyl mastic to fill gaps between parts to stop them vibrating. If I was to remove the rocker panels to do this I'd line them with vinyl mastic while I had them off, as well as anything underneath them that might vibrate.

[NealfromNZ]

Got to love the f30/f80 chassis ! Side skirts , number plate , interior trim
Panels, interior light fitting. All rattle 😀
It’s like they needed the e39 / e46 design team to finish it !

Thanks for those videos. Orginally with the F80 was thinking that I’d apply minimal sound deadening and treatment as wanted some of the M3 character sound wise to come through. Sounding more like a series of treatments to stop trim panels shaking apart.

Ironically the right side side skirt for some reason doesn’t rattle….. yet.

[jmciver]

So I decided to dive back in again for another tuning session as I had a few more objectives I wanted to accomplish as I continue to learn. That, and the fact I was not too happy with my latest tune after listening to it for a while. It sounded good, and better than my previous ones, but after listening to it for a while, I determined that the target curve I used did not have enough bass for me. So I wanted to try a different target curve to tune…

Other than using a new target curve with some more bass, my other objectives were as follows:

1. Try the RTA functionality in the Audiotec tuning software
2. Try the automatic time alignment in the Audiotec tuning software
3. Tune my system so that it sounds they way I want, with the factory EQ set completely flat
4. Get better and more refined imaging with the tune

So regarding item #1, after finding a Youtube video about how to use the RTA tool in the software I gave it a shot. After using REW for a while as my primary tuning tool, I found the RTA tool in the tuning software to be a bit clunky and less refined. But that could just be because I had become used to using REW. But REW is still a more powerful tool. However, the RTA functionality in the software is a good place to start for anyone just getting started as REW can seem intimidating. The video below is the one I found that does a very good job about how to use it (and some other features in the software)…

As for item#2, using the automatic time alignment feature, I don’t know why I did not use this previously. It was very easy, worked like a charm, and was much quicker (and I will speculate more accurate) than using a tape measure like I have been using in the past. Don’t get me wrong, the tape measure method works and should get you there - it has been used forever with DSP tuning. But the automatic time alignment feature takes the guess work out of time alignment (and does not require doing any math, although the software will do the math for you if you enter all speaker distances correctly ). For the automatic time alignment measurement to work, the catch is that you need to make sure you have a strong enough signal from all the speakers in order to get successful results.

In my case, the sub is the furthest speaker and in the trunk. I needed to fold down my rear seats in order for the signal from the sub to be detected by the mic during the alignment procedure. As for where to put the mic, a tip I learned from the video above is to put the mic on the tip of your nose during the test. Prior to starting the measurement, you need to measure the distance from your nose (in your normal listening position) to the reference speaker, which in this case is the driver side mid range speaker. Then enter that distance into the software. I also ran the measurement 2-3 times as each additional time you run it, it uses the previous data, thus providing more accurate results.

To achieve item #3, I used a curve that more mimicked the Harmon curve, with a bit more bass on the low end. A few pics below show the final results after I was done tuning using this new curve. This gave me what I wanted as far as more bass, and the factory equalizer in idrive is completely flat. Time will tell as I listen to the new tune over time. Also, if I ever want to turn down the bass, I can (using my installed bass knob) without it having a negative impact on the sound (at least to my ears ).

I also tried a different frequency measuring technic this time. Previously, I did all of my measurements with me outside the car. First was the mic mounted to the headrest, next time I built a contraption out of a cheap oscillating fan (with the fan in the driver seat) which allowed me to try the moving microphone method (MMM) with me still outside the car. This time I sat in the car for all of my measurements, using the MMM by waving the mic around my head (ear to ear). So far I think the tune is better than my previous ones. But it is difficult to say how much the frequency measurement technique used comes into play. My research tells me that no one technique is necessarily better than the other. But each technique has its pros and cons, and what is important is to understand what they are when determining which technique works best for you. Right now, I think I like the MMM with me sitting the car the best so far (but the use of earplugs is definitely recommended when listening to a lot of pink noise ).

One other thing I learned during this tuning session is why I believe I had so many dips and cancellations between the mid range and mid bass areas of my curve. In the past, I was able to remove most of them using all pass filters in the software. However, I was still never able to achieve the imaging I thought I should - but the final result at the time still did sound good to my ears. Well, I did something this time that I did not do in the past, but I should have done. It was to verify the polarity of each speaker, ensuring it was installed correctly. I have a simple app on my iphone that does this. It plays a special “pop” sound through the speaker (I connect my iphone to the car via a usb cable). I discovered that the underseat woofers are wired from the factory in reverse polarity.

After I flipped the polarity for both underseat woofers (the mid bass speakers in my system) in the software, the frequency response instantly became better, with no significant dips/cancellations and the imaging on the dash became much better. The frequency response pics below show this. Using another app that I found, I was able to verify proper imaging on the dash from Left, Left Center, Center, Right Center, and Right - it was almost perfect. And allowed me to achieve my final objective #4 above.

The last thing I did this time around was deal with the issue of running out of time during my tuning sessions. As I am still learning (and I am slow ), my battery would get too low and I would have to stop - either drive the car for a bit or put it on the trickle charger for several hours to re-charge the battery. So I decided to finally build myself a DIY car power supply using a computer server power supply. Lots of info on the net about how to do this so I won’t go into details here. But they are fairly easy and cheap to make (but of course I had to be “cute” with my build - a few shameless pics are below ). Needless to say, having that power supply made tuning easier as I did not need to worry about draining my battery and I can use it for other things, like coding as well on any of my cars. For anyone that is curious, the link to the video I used for the power supply is below….

Next up is tackling a two seat tune. But after some more research, it looks like I have a bit more learning (and experimenting) in order to get that working. At least getting the imaging the way I want - using the factory imaging from one of my other cars as my guide. So more to come I guess….

[NealfromNZ]

Love the insights and repurposing a server PSU . I use an old 550 watt PC PSU as a bench supply , but haven’t got to point of hooking one into a car as an aux battery source . Great work !

For the house curves I’d been following a post on DIYMA my previous system. You might be interested in having a look.

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threa...nd-rew.456458/

[jmciver]

Originally Posted by NealfromNZ

Love the insights and repurposing a server PSU . I use an old 550 watt PC PSU as a bench supply , but haven’t got to point of hooking one into a car as an aux battery source . Great work !

For the house curves I’d been following a post on DIYMA my previous system. You might be interested in having a look.

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threa...nd-rew.456458/

I have actually been using that spreadsheet target curve generator tool for some time now…... The discussion towards the end of the thread is intriguing though…

[NealfromNZ]

It does 😀And then there are the “secret” house curves that some of the competition guys and girls are using that come up from
time to time.

I ended up running three variations for drivers position for similar Bass reasons. First curve was essentially for sitting in car with engine idling. ( sub -10 db but running to 110 hz to integrate with 5.25 mid bass )

Next was sub at -6db which was good ref level for driving. Last was 0db which would absolutely pound the bass but also good for bringing Rock and Metal tracks up a bit.

[Billfitz]

Listening at home that target curve would be horrible, but it's a different story in a car, where road noise below 150Hz would otherwise drown out the bass. However, you don't want to be seeing much, if anything, below 35Hz. There's not enough music content down there to justify it, while both amp and speaker headroom suffer trying to get it. Even multi-million dollar pro-touring sound systems don't chase after content below 35Hz, so neither should you.

[jmciver]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

Listening at home that target curve would be horrible, but it's a different story in a car, where road noise below 150Hz would otherwise drown out the bass. However, you don't want to be seeing much, if anything, below 35Hz. There's not enough music content down there to justify it, while both amp and speaker headroom suffer trying to get it. Even multi-million dollar pro-touring sound systems don't chase after content below 35Hz, so neither should you.

I was actually surprised at just how much the road noise changed how my tune sounded when driving vs sitting in my garage with the engine off. I never noticed that in the car prior to my system upgrade, and not even in my other cars with their stock systems (HK in my X7 and HiFi in my wife’s X3 - even though I am more sensitive to it now). The road noise cancelling out the bass in my previous tunes (after I installed the trunk sub) is why I wanted to use a different target curve, which now “maintains” most of the bass I want while driving.

I added quite a bit of sound isolation to the doors, roof and trunk area, which really did quiet down the noise coming inside the cabin (both engine and road noise). But the bass levels were still surprisingly reduced while driving more than I would have thought……

[NealfromNZ]

I spent a number of years chasing midbass performance that just wasn’t possible in an unmodifed e46 front door setup . Setup on those only use door card cavity so small leaky sealed enclosure. Ran these down to 80hz orginally but they wouldn’t blend well. Used 110hz in the end with a slight time offset on far side door and usual time delay on near side door. Bass timing actually worked quite well doing that and sounded reasonably up front.

Sub Bass used a combo of transfer function and direct venting into cabin via ski pass setup in rear armrest. F3 was 23hz so sub would go low. Music like Philip Glasses Phrophecies pipe organ could be played with absolute authority or Within Temptations Gatekeeper bass and drums would have impact.

But those bass curves where handy on the 1 hour commute where you’d be anywhere between stop and go, 30 mph or 62 mph each way.

Wouldn’t run those curves at home , but then the lounge analog hifi system is 2.0 running 10 inch three way speakers with nothing other than volume control .

The F80 no doubt will have other challlenges with blending door speakers to underseat and underseat with sub.

[phc77]

That's it! The UP 10DSP is installed. It's great:

In addition to the harness, this little jewel (really tiny) comes with connectors that allow wire-to-wire operation. Many combinations are therefore possible.
For example, I was able to remove the right AR surround and route it with the left, in order to have a 2nd channel free for the active tweeters.
In fact, you only need to remove the center channel to have a 2nd free output. I'll correct this later.

The center channel must be removed. Why ?
It's not a real center channel, it doesn't pass the IASCA test. It's a mixture of left and right channels. The sound is horrible.
The DSP restores a true center channel, it's virtual but incredible.

Next, the I+J subwoofer outputs: I plugged in new cables and took advantage of the tweeter cable routing to move them forward, with a view to later installing 16.5 cm speakers in the doors.

The 8" underseat woofers : they should be kept (as suggested by Billfitz). After putting on butyl, I connected them in parallel, 4ohms (they sound louder than at 8ohms) to a Rockford Fosgate T1000-4ad amp in mono 500W rms efficiency 84.1%@4ohms.
They sound good, they sound loud, they descend in the bass like a sub box, filter 35-250). Gain is at 3 on the amp and -6 db in the DSP. Bass is very powerful, even with the roof and windows open.

Tweeters (Hertz MP 28.3) on the dashboard, crossover 3.5k : sound really good! That's all I'm going to change (I haven't unplugged anything). They sound really good, without giving any particular color to the music. The sound image, the stereo, the scene. Super!

Feedback:
There's no more Most25 on the BMWs, so no more SDMI25, but I regret nothing,
I have all my pdc alerts, all the original volumes,
The center channel should be removed,
Put active tweeters,
Keep everything else and invest in powerful, high-quality amplification.
For the moment, I've only done the time setting.
The next step is to follow the guide jmciver for the settings. I've tried several times, even with tutorials, but I haven't succeeded yet. I'll settle down and do it over the summer.

[jmciver]

phc77 glad to see things are turning out well in your project. The tuning part is where the real fun begins. Each new tune I have done, I take what I have learned and it sounds better than the previous one.

On that note, you may want to reconsider disconnecting the center channel. The center speaker does allow for different tuning/sound configurations that you can’t create (at least not very easily) without an actual speaker present in the center of the dash. This is especially true if you want to create a 2-seat tune or a single tune with imaging centered on you (i.e. the center of the steering wheel) vice the center of the dash.

A 2-seat tune and better center imaging on me (the driver) are my next projects and why I elected to keep my center speaker as part of my system. Taking what I have learned so far, and having more deeply analyzed the sound coming from the stock HK system in my X7 (coded with the B&W DSP profiles), I confirmed what my ears are telling me which is almost perfect center imaging on each front passenger seat (on the person sitting in the seat, not the center of the dash). I am almost there with my UP10 tuning, but I still have some stuff to learn and experiment with….

[phc77]

Originally Posted by jmciver :
[I

On that note, you may want to reconsider disconnecting the center channel. The center speaker does allow for different tuning/sound configurations that you can’t create (at least not very easily) without an actual speaker present in the center of the dash. This is especially true if you want to create a 2-seat tune or a single tune with imaging centered on you (i.e. the center of the steering wheel) vice the center of the dash.[/I]

I understand, especially as the two-place chord is also one of my projects.

I'm very pleased with your progress.

[MatF31320i]

Originally Posted by jmciver

So I went in and tweaked a bit more and thought I would share...

The Rev2 file attached to this post is very slightly tweaked from the Rev2 file I originally posted. As I posted above, I wanted to move the sound stage a bit more centered in front of the driver. I originally achieved this by turning off the rear door speakers (the rear deck speakers remained on). This time I turned the rear door speakers back on, but made a few level adjustments to the front left and rear left door speakers to achieve what I think is a better sounding tune, with the stage centered in front of the driver on top of the cluster.

For the Rev3 file attached, I wanted to create a better surround effect. My goal was to achieve a more "concert hall" surround sound effect while still keeping the sound stage centered on the driver, on top of the cluster. I think I got it (at least to my ears anyway ) so I will be using this tune predominantly, at least for now.

I have the Audiotec URC.3 installed so I can switch between two tune files on the fly, which is currently programmed for my Rev2 and Rev3 tune files. The Rev2 tune is definitely more of a "studio" focused tune (with some rear fill), while the Rev3 tune has more of a "concert hall" effect as I described above. I know using different speaker hardware will provide different sounding results, but if anyone else is running the UP10DSP in a HK equipped F30/F80, regardless of your speaker hardware setup, I would be interested in any feedback on the tunes (don't forget to change the .pdf back to .afpx before uploading them ).

Thanks and enjoy!

Thanks so much for posting this, I'm new to car audio, things have moved on significantly since I was cutting holes in parcel shelves for 6x9's!

I was forced into this as my HK amp died, I was looking at the possibilities of repairing it (over £1k) or replacing it (with them being on massive back order at BMW, hence me installing a Match UP 10DSP along with an Audison BIT DMI adapter.

I found your thread and I'm trying to learn about how to configure the DSP to get the best out of it and your posts have been great and really informative.

Once I'd hooked everything up I downloaded the base tune for my car from AF. Its a 2019 F31 with HK audio. Turned it on, I have sound....however its only coming out of the door speakers from what I can tell - any idea what could be causing this?

I came across your post and thought brilliant, I tried both of your tunes but I get zero sound from both of them.

I'm running an Android screen as well which hooks into iDrive - I'm wondering if this could be having an impact also.

Any thoughts or advice very much appreciated.

[phc77]

Originally Posted by MatF31320i

...installing a Match UP 10DSP along with an Audison BIT DMI adapter.

Once I'd hooked everything up I downloaded the base tune for my car from AF. Its a 2019 F31 with HK audio. Turned it on, I have sound....however its only coming out of the door speakers from what I can tell - any idea what could be causing this?

1. Car infotainment is first and foremost a computer (coding: decoding).
Coherence of the system is essential for equipment reliability and good communication:
Audison BIT DMI adapter => Audison DSP amplifier
SDMI25 => Match UPxxxDSP

2. To be read carefully:
https://www.audiotec-fischer.de/en/k...SP-PC-Tool/io/

[NealfromNZ]

Another question if you don’t mind.

With your sub do you get lots of subsonic shake ? I haven’t treated the trunk yet but since swapping in my 12 inch sub going from a 10 inch bass has quite a low frequency physical feel to it now even at modest volumes. Car is shaking more than I thought it would.

[Billfitz]

At some point that's going to happen, so vinyl mastic lining, not foam, is a must. There's a lot of energy coming from subs. How much? When you hear a car go by with bass that threatens to knock your house down you're not hearing the sound waves created by the sub. You're hearing the sound waves created by the car sheet metal vibrating in response to the pressure exerted on it by the sound waves inside the car. You don't hear much, if anything, above 100Hz, because there's not enough energy to cause the sheet metal to vibrate enough. Below 100Hz there's plenty.

[jmciver]

Originally Posted by NealfromNZ

Another question if you don’t mind.

With your sub do you get lots of subsonic shake ? I haven’t treated the trunk yet but since swapping in my 12 inch sub going from a 10 inch bass has quite a low frequency physical feel to it now even at modest volumes. Car is shaking more than I thought it would.

Not sure what you mean by “subsonic shake” but if you mean can I crank it up and really “feel” the bass, then yes. The 10” I have with the trunk enclosure and 500 watt amp can really thump, especially with the bass heavy tune I have in the car now. Of course, my installed bass knob can modulate the bass as well.

However, while I did not do a before and after measurement, I know the sound deadening material in the trunk helps as well, especially with any potential rattles. I specifically covered the area in the back corner where the sub is installed for this purpose…

[NealfromNZ]

The shaking of the car is happening below 35hz , probably closer to 20hz or below. I don’t need much in the way of volume for it to happen . Trunk lid is going nuts and the floor storage area in the trunk is buzzing. Sub bass can be felt through drivers seat.

The 10 inch ( my backup sub ) I’ve been running for the past month rolled off before hitting the resonace issue I think. Or just can’t create the physical energy of a high excursion 12 inch sub and passive radiator. Sub is also bolted in verse sitting loose before.

I’ve found an NZ source for Soundskins ( as you’ve done as as Bill suggests ) so will line the trunk floor and use the thinner Dynamat on the trunk lid pannel underside. Failing that will go back to a 10 inch sub.

[Billfitz]

There's no meaningful music content below 35Hz, so if you've confirmed by RTA that you have output down there you should high pass the sub at 35Hz. But you have to confirm it. For the most part people tend to think that their bass content is an octave lower than actual. Going to a smaller sub isn't necessary when all you need to do is high pass at whatever frequency required to eliminate the problem.

[IrieJimbo]

Piggybacking onto this thread with a few others, it seems like this is the best source of information on this topic that the internet has to offer!

My HK amp has died from water damage and I've decided I may as well upgrade due to the astronomical costs of repairing it or replacing like for like.

I am by no means an audiophile and all of the technical info in the thread has overwhelmed me a bit. Am I right in thinking that if I was to purchase the 3 items below, that would be all I'd need to PnP?

MATCH UP 10 DSP AMP
https://www.crowncustomscaraudio.co....2af1a3c0&_ss=r

HARNESS
https://www.crowncustomscaraudio.co....on-with-sdmi25

MOST ADAPTOR (either of these 2 as the SDMI 25 cannot be found anywhere)
https://www.caraudioexpress.co.uk/pr...l-pre-amp-most
https://www.cen.uk/audison-bit-dmi-d...imedia-systems

Having read through I'm obvioulsy aware that simply PnP isn't the end as it will need properly mounting and tuning, but if I assemble these will it at least work? And then I can work on the more technical details from there.

[Boogie651]

Originally Posted by IrieJimbo

Piggybacking onto this thread with a few others, it seems like this is the best source of information on this topic that the internet has to offer!

My HK amp has died from water damage and I've decided I may as well upgrade due to the astronomical costs of repairing it or replacing like for like.

I am by no means an audiophile and all of the technical info in the thread has overwhelmed me a bit. Am I right in thinking that if I was to purchase the 3 items below, that would be all I'd need to PnP?

MATCH UP 10 DSP AMP
https://www.crowncustomscaraudio.co....2af1a3c0&_ss=r

HARNESS
https://www.crowncustomscaraudio.co....on-with-sdmi25

MOST ADAPTOR (either of these 2 as the SDMI 25 cannot be found anywhere)
https://www.caraudioexpress.co.uk/pr...l-pre-amp-most
https://www.cen.uk/audison-bit-dmi-d...imedia-systems

Having read through I'm obvioulsy aware that simply PnP isn't the end as it will need properly mounting and tuning, but if I assemble these will it at least work? And then I can work on the more technical details from there.

I’m not 100% sure, but I think depending on what year you have the MOST adapter might not needed. I have a 22’, and the MOST adapter is not needed.

[IrieJimbo]

Originally Posted by Boogie651

I’m not 100% sure, but I think depending on what year you have the MOST adapter might not needed. I have a 22’, and the MOST adapter is not needed.

Thanks mate, suppose I could return the adapter if it isn’t necessary. I’ve got a 2014 so it probably will.
So that should be enough to at least give me some sound? With or without adapter depending?