[phc77]

Hello,
First,
This Gergo Borlai, sounds great in my car:

This Eric Moore, not enough:

So,
For the kick and upper end of the bass drum spectrum, I'm going to have custom panels made to add 6"5 to the bottom of the door for the MATCH UP 10DSP subwoofer output:
4 Ohms 2 x 90 Watts or,
2 Ohms 2 x 160 Watts
My system is HK front fully active (with new tweeters, HK 4" and 10" woofer under the seat (currently 35 hz to 250 hz). Adjusting crossover frequencies is not a problem.

Theremore (my underseat woofer are bridged), even if I think that there is no point in hoping, I'm trying to get some stereo bass that we hear from Toni Braxton "Sposed to be". Here (stay focused),

I need your advice for the best choice between these 2 solutions or any other better proposal :
https://www.ground-zero-audio.com/wp...GZUK-165SQ.pdf
https://www.focal.com/sites/www.foca...ical_sheet.pdf

Then:
To feel the bass, including the ones I don't hear; powered by,
500 Watts x 1 @ 4-Ohm Efficiency 84.1% @ 4-Ohm or,
500 Watts x 1 @ 2-Ohm Efficiency 81.6% @ 2-Ohm
I need your advice for the best choice of 15" in a 50 to 70 liter enclosure between :
Rockford Fosgate P2D2 or P2D4 and Dayton Audio UM15-22 or any other better proposal.

Thanks for your help

[Billfitz]

IMO there's no point in adding more speakers. If the current in-door 4" are inadequate I'd replace them with 6.5". You don't say what your 10" under the seat are, but if they truly handle 35-250Hz why do you need more? If you run them to 250Hz and the 4" above 250Hz the 4" should be quite sufficient. If they actually reach 35Hz there's no reason to add a sub. BTW, there has been no such thing as low frequency stereo since the 1970s. All content below 80Hz is summed to mono.

[NealfromNZ]

If your going to do lower doors

SI TM8 in the lower doors and forget about underseat 10 inch
Replace 100 mm HKs with SI M3 carbon for wider dispersion ( 90 mm )
GB10 tweeters ( bmw snap in tweeter version )
SI SQL15 in the trunk

And a ton of sound deadening in the trunk because it’s going to rattle beyond belief

[phc77]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

IMO there's no point in adding more speakers. If the current in-door 4" are inadequate I'd replace them with 6.5". You don't say what your 10" under the seat are, but if they truly handle 35-250Hz why do you need more? If you run them to 250Hz and the 4" above 250Hz the 4" should be quite sufficient. If they actually reach 35Hz there's no reason to add a sub. BTW, there has been no such thing as low frequency stereo since the 1970s. All content below 80Hz is summed to mono.

I listen a lot to Count Basie for his incomparable orchestration, and Quincy Jones recently re-recorded his songs with Franck Sinatra: nuggets. The double bass is sometimes on the left, sometimes on the right.
On "sposed to be" Toni Braxton, the deep, heavy bass moves from left to right: unusual, but excellent.

The 4" and 8" (not the 10", I made a mistake) are stock HK.
As I said, the 6"5 seems essential to get what my ears and emotions expect.

I haven't worked on the settings yet, but it's not the bass that missing, it's the sensations.
The 15" and 6.5" generate waves that have more range and will give me the possibility of many combinations.

[phc77]

Originally Posted by NealfromNZ

If your going to do lower doors

SI TM8 in the lower doors and forget about underseat 10 inch
Replace 100 mm HKs with SI M3 carbon for wider dispersion ( 90 mm )
GB10 tweeters ( bmw snap in tweeter version )
SI SQL15 in the trunk

For the SQL 15, I don't have the power supply, I only have 500 - 600 watts, and its specifications seem to make the P2D2 a better compromise.
On the other hand, the TM8 seems an excellent answer to my problem, especially as it fills in perfectly where the performance of my 8" starts to fall off, they seem to complement each other perfectly but I don't have the 150 watts needed to push them and that's a pity, the 90 watts I have won't be enough.

[NealfromNZ]

SQL15 & 12 will go louder than the punch for the same power and with 400- 500
Watt bass can easily get to high 120db. Your Dayton idea is also worth considering as well.
.
I’m running 400-500 rms into a high excursion 12 inch and still working through trunk treatments to tame rattles. It does shake the car.

90 rms watts into doors running 8 inch speakers will go loud. They will need quite a bit of door treatment at that power level. But the advantage with your door idea is you can run them to 300 hz to better cover midbass and change the door mids up to match.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by phc77

I listen a lot to Count Basie for his incomparable orchestration, and Quincy Jones recently re-recorded his songs with Franck Sinatra: nuggets. The double bass is sometimes on the left, sometimes on the right.
On "sposed to be" Toni Braxton, the deep, heavy bass moves from left to right: unusual, but excellent.

It was common to hard pan bass in the 60s, but only until it was realized by recording engineers that since frequencies below 80Hz are not directionally locatable there was no point in doing so, and they were losing the output of one woofer that they couldn't afford to, as most of the power demands lie in the lows. Deep heavy bass can't move from left to right for that reason, it's not directionally locatable. If you hear it moving from left to right it's not deep bass. Where double bass is concerned there's very little content below 80Hz, it's mainly second and third harmonics that don't go that low, which can be heard when panned to either side. The same applies to recordings of electric bass that were hard panned. When it can be heard it's above 80Hz. That wasn't unusual in the 60's, as electric bass speakers didn't go much below 80Hz anyway. That capability didn't come along until the 70's, coinciding with when recording engineers summed the low frequency content to mono.

I haven't worked on the settings yet, but it's not the bass that missing, it's the sensations.
The 15" and 6.5" generate waves that have more range and will give me the possibility of many combinations.

Perhaps, but it's way too easy to fool oneself in that regard. Driver size means very little. If it did my home theater system, using only eight inch sub drivers and four inch midbasses, wouldn't be able to easily exceed THX theatrical standards, but it does.

[phc77]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

Perhaps, but it's way too easy to fool oneself in that regard. Driver size means very little. If it did my home theater system, using only eight inch sub drivers and four inch midbasses, wouldn't be able to easily exceed THX theatrical standards, but it does.

Billfitz, making a comparison between a car, a house and headphones that, despite their size, are capable of reproducing 30hz without difficulty, that's not you, but it's certainly a test.
I'm sure you'll be able to help me find a solution to my needs, given the constraints of the sound environment of a "coupé".

Maybe you can say what do you hear in the low frequencies of "Sposed to be"? What frequencies do you hear? And What goes from left to right? I hear them in 30 to 100hz. But I'll make measurement of this.

In the studio, a bass drum is recorded then, frequency samples are added to get that heavy, punchy sound. What in my car will produce this heavy, punchy sound? Overlapping frequencies from a 15" subwoofer and the underseat 8" woofer, provided they don't cancel each other out?

[phc77]

Originally Posted by NealfromNZ

SQL15 & 12 will go louder than the punch for the same power and with 400- 500
Watt bass can easily get to high 120db. Your Dayton idea is also worth considering as well.
.
IÂ’m running 400-500 rms into a high excursion 12 inch and still working through trunk treatments to tame rattles. It does shake the car.

90 rms watts into doors running 8 inch speakers will go loud. They will need quite a bit of door treatment at that power level. But the advantage with your door idea is you can run them to 300 hz to better cover midbass and change the door mids up to match.

For the 15" enclosure, I need some calculations to see what the curve gives.
The TM8 is a choice I'm keeping for if I have to change my under-seat woofer because it's too big for the door.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by phc77

I hear them in 30 to 100hz. But I'll make measurement of this.

One cannot rely on their ears. It's typical for listeners to think what they're hearing in the bass is at least a full octave lower than what's actually there. Measurements are the only way to know. Even if there is content in the low bass what you mainly hear is the midbass, the result of equal loudness.

In the studio, a bass drum is recorded then, frequency samples are added to get that heavy, punchy sound. What in my car will produce this heavy, punchy sound? Overlapping frequencies from a 15" subwoofer and the underseat 8" woofer, provided they don't cancel each other out?

That heavy punchy sound lies in the 50-100Hz octave. 8 inch woofers are perfectly capable of handling that range. The only reason to go to a larger woofer is if 8 inch don't have enough displacement, Thiele-Small spec Vd, to give the desired output level. But one doesn't necessarily have to go larger in cone area, spec Sd, to get more Vd. Longer Xmax results in more Vd too. As for overlapping frequencies from different drivers, that's usually exactly what you don't want.

[phc77]

What do you think about adding a subwoofer and leaving the 8" HK on a smaller range.
This will allow me to manage the ranges separately for finer tuning.
Something like:
20 Hz - 63 Hz : Sub (15" UM15-22){1 x 500 W}
63 Hz - 120 Hz : Bass (8" HK under seat) {1 x 500 W@4ohms}
120 Hz - 500 Hz : Low-midrange. (6.5" GZUK 165SQ) {2 x 90 W@4ohms}
500 Hz - 3500 Hz: Midrange. (4" HK OEM) {2 x 75 W}.
3500 Hz - 20000 Hz : Tweeter

[NealfromNZ]

With the HKs you’d be better off running them in stereo if you can. The response of the left and right drivers isn’t in sync and the drivers side has dip after 100 hz.

Also the HK become more muddy as the power levels increase. Running 60hz up running 24 DB LR4 filters they can take quite a bit of power though, I wasn’t hearing excursion limits with 140 rms on tap.

Here’s a graph of my current woofers with no eq or filters to illustrate the the differences with a 45hz - 175 hz sweep

Blue graph is drivers side with no people in car.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by phc77

Something like:
20 Hz - 63 Hz : Sub (15" UM15-22){1 x 500 W}
63 Hz - 120 Hz : Bass (8" HK under seat) {1 x 500 W@4ohms}
120 Hz - 500 Hz : Low-midrange. (6.5" GZUK 165SQ) {2 x 90 W@4ohms}
500 Hz - 3500 Hz: Midrange. (4" HK OEM) {2 x 75 W}.
3500 Hz - 20000 Hz : Tweeter

There's no benefit to a five way system, and not much to a four way. 20Hz in a car doesn't make sense, there's no meaningful content below 35Hz other than low frequency effects in home theater.

[Dollag]

I am just looking for some advice RE: wiring as i just received my 10dsp and mobridge DA1.

DA1 power supply - From jmciver pic on page 2, it looks like the helix is being powered by the match up's pin 10 & 20 from the system controller. The manual says do not connect this which has got me confused? are these actual live outputs which can be used to power the da1?

Remote - The da1 has a remote ouput so was going to use that for sending signal to the match up but if this is the case, if the power is being sent from the match up to the da1, it wouldnt be able to send the remoute out if its receiving its power from the matchup?

any guidance on the above would be very much appreciated.

[jmciver]

Originally Posted by Dollag

I am just looking for some advice RE: wiring as i just received my 10dsp and mobridge DA1.

DA1 power supply - From jmciver pic on page 2, it looks like the helix is being powered by the match up's pin 10 & 20 from the system controller. The manual says do not connect this which has got me confused? are these actual live outputs which can be used to power the da1?

Remote - The da1 has a remote ouput so was going to use that for sending signal to the match up but if this is the case, if the power is being sent from the match up to the da1, it wouldnt be able to send the remoute out if its receiving its power from the matchup?

any guidance on the above would be very much appreciated.

It has been a while and I don’t have my notes handy…. Regarding powering the SDMI25 in my setup, the harness I used to connect the UP10 to the car was a special harness made by Audiotec to connect the UP10 to HK equipped BMWs (E & F Series) and using the SDMI25. IIRC, pins 10 and 20 were used with that harness to send power to the SDMI25 as a convenience so running separate power lines to the SDMI25 were not needed.

While it is not very clear in the manual (and the harness connector did not come with a manual), pins 9, 10, 19 & 20 are connected to the main power input to the amp, basically acting like a power pass through. This will allow you to power other devices, like the SDMI25, without the need to run separate power lines for the SDMI25. The warning in the manual to not use those pins is so you don’t use those pins to connect the amp to the car for power - you are supposed to use the main power connector for that purpose.

As for the remote signal, the Remote Out signal from the DA1 goes to the Remote In of the UP10. The DA1 tells the UP10 to turn on when the DA1 has a sound signal. The remote signal does not provide power to the amp.

However, in your case since you are not using the SDMI25, which is made by Audiotec, it might be better to run separate power lines to your DA1 and just connect the Remote In/Out between the DA1 and UP10 along with the audio lines.

[phc77]

Originally Posted by Dollag

I am just looking for some advice RE: wiring as i just received my 10dsp and mobridge DA1.

You may need to match Mobridge connectors with Match harness 1.9 + SDMI

[Dollag]

Originally Posted by phc77

You may need to match Mobridge connectors with Match harness 1.9 + SDMI

I just done what jmciver said which i believe is the correct way.

I set it up in the car today but getting no warning tones in the car

It started to rain and i was losing light so decided to look into it in the morning. somethings not right somewhere it seems.

Got a most signal still out the connector going into the da1 so i know thats not the issue. Will check the lives etc and start the process of elimination.

[NealfromNZ]

Originally Posted by Dollag

I just done what jmciver said which i believe is the correct way.

I set it up in the car today but getting no warning tones in the car

It started to rain and i was losing light so decided to look into it in the morning. somethings not right somewhere it seems.

Got a most signal still out the connector going into the da1 so i know thats not the issue. Will check the lives etc and start the process of elimination.

With Mobridge “no warning tones” usually means the device needs to be configured to BMW and that the 4 sinks ( chime, pdc, hands free, Nav announcements ) need to be mapped to left and right channels.

Download the Mobridge windows or Mac app and connect to the DA1 via usb. Menus are straight forward to configure.

App will also do an online check and will download any firmware updates for unit.

[phc77]

I'm back for the best choice between these 6.5" door speakers, connected to the MATCH UP10's subwoofer outputs.
100-120 hz to 500 hz
2 x 90 Watts @4 Ohms with:
GZUK-165SQ https://www.ground-zero-audio.com/wp...GZUK-165SQ.pdf
or,
2 x 160 Watts @2 Ohms with:
ES165-KX2 https://www.focal.com/sites/www.foca...ical_sheet.pdf

[Billfitz]

Neither. If you're using them from 100-500Hz the Fs is too low. It should be between 70-90Hz. Besides, both have a ludicrous price. No 6.5 inch is worth more than $100 USD.

I wouldn't use larger than a 5 inch, there's more selection with the best specs, and no need for a 6.5 inch if you're only using it down to 100Hz. There's also no reason to use either a 5 or 6.5 inch to only 500Hz. Most are capable to at least 3kHz.

[Dollag]

Originally Posted by NealfromNZ

With Mobridge “no warning tones” usually means the device needs to be configured to BMW and that the 4 sinks ( chime, pdc, hands free, Nav announcements ) need to be mapped to left and right channels.

Download the Mobridge windows or Mac app and connect to the DA1 via usb. Menus are straight forward to configure.

App will also do an online check and will download any firmware updates for unit.

I got it up and running. Been delayed due to the poor weather.

I haven’t had an opportunity to tune correctly but out the gate, the underseat woofers sound terrible compared to how they were with the hk amp. Sounds like their polarity is backwards, that’s how poor they sound?? I did check the polarity in the dsp and it’s not that but is the best way to explain how they sound. I need to get my mic off my colleague so I can start tuning and see what the actual problem is.


Also I noticed the volume of phone calls is a lot lower than they were before? Need to spend some time with it but at least I have sound back in the car, although I don’t want to listen to it like it is.

[NealfromNZ]

Originally Posted by Dollag

I got it up and running. Been delayed due to the poor weather.

I haven’t had an opportunity to tune correctly but out the gate, the underseat woofers sound terrible compared to how they were with the hk amp. Sounds like their polarity is backwards, that’s how poor they sound?? I did check the polarity in the dsp and it’s not that but is the best way to explain how they sound. I need to get my mic off my colleague so I can start tuning and see what the actual problem is.


Also I noticed the volume of phone calls is a lot lower than they were before? Need to spend some time with it but at least I have sound back in the car, although I don’t want to listen to it like it is.

Add about +6 -!7 db to sink 2 for the phone call volume. Also check your mic and output volume on the NBT sound menu during a call. You may need to turn that up further.

The Mobridge is set so that factory eq via nbt can be maxed without digital clipping. Also recent software updates have more gain available. But you now have a flat signal with no processing to start with.

Try the underseats with +6 db gain compared with your mids as a starting point to restore bass . You may need to flip polarity with mids if your using 12 db filters. But mic / RTA obviously will show what is happening.