[delange]

Great stuff in this thread!

I have the hifi upgrade in my 320d Touring from 2009.
I'm interested to learn about how this system is setup: how many channels does the amp have; how are they wired (crossovers, amp channels to feed the speakers, etc). Does anyone have a link to a wiring diagram or something like that?

I'm looking for this information in order to decide on the best upgrade path for my audio system. The hifi upgrade is not bad but it lack a bit of bass. Also it has less definition that the Harman Kardon system in my company car.

Thanks!

[Jalisco]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

Until presented with objective data to prove otherwise I'm inclined to believe that the OEM woofers give as good a result as is possible with the OEM amplification. Most of the reason why it's widely assumed that an aftermarket woofer will work better is because they're expensive, but so are the stock woofers.

Agreed. With better amplification the stock woofers sound good no need for costly upgrades. A majority of people who upgrade add in a dsp in order to get the best results who is to say stock woofers wouldn't be improved? And yes I have Jehnert's in my garage, and gladen's (prefer the gladen's). I ran a full Mosconi set up the thing that set it off was a dedicated sub.

[mrcaesar]

Hi,

I am currently looking for upgrading the whole audio in my 2012 F20, basic (non hifi) setup.

I have the 6.5" basic "subs", no amp. I was looking for an aftermarket replacement in 6.5" like Earthquake SWS-6.5X.

Now that I read the whole thread, I'm not so sure !
I understand that the BMW drivers are not that bad.

So my question : may I buy aftermarket subs, or any used Hifi/HK BMW subs + enclosures ?

I plan to add an amp (pp82dsp, Mosconi Gladen D2, Audison AP8.9, Eton Stage 6, not decided yet) + hifi coding.

Any advice appeciated !

I already bought Focal 100krs for front speakers, and Focal PC100 for rear speakers.

[beanbaguk]

Originally Posted by mrcaesar

Hi,

I am currently looking for upgrading the whole audio in my 2012 F20, basic (non hifi) setup.

I have the 6.5" basic "subs", no amp. I was looking for an aftermarket replacement in 6.5" like Earthquake SWS-6.5X.

Now that I read the whole thread, I'm not so sure !
I understand that the BMW drivers are not that bad.

So my question : may I buy aftermarket subs, or any used Hifi/HK BMW subs + enclosures ?

I plan to add an amp (pp82dsp, Mosconi Gladen D2, Audison AP8.9, Eton Stage 6, not decided yet) + hifi coding.

Any advice appeciated !

I already bought Focal 100krs for front speakers, and Focal PC100 for rear speakers.

The standard basic (non-hifi) subs are absolute garbage. I ran mine for a little while until I received my Ghost subs and the difference was shocking.

Most replacements are reasonable but the basic ones are junk.

Trust me....replace them if you can afford it!

[MSportTune2]

I recently changed my first gen Bavsound ghost sub to the Ground Zero ones and immediately hear a lot more bass and clarity.
I am running full Bavsound speakers with Bimmertech amp but set up mine to HK sixteen speakers set up.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by mrcaesar

I have the 6.5" basic "subs", no amp. I was looking for an aftermarket replacement in 6.5" like Earthquake SWS-6.5X.
Now that I read the whole thread, I'm not so sure !
I understand that the BMW drivers are not that bad.

I'm not familiar with 6.5" under seat woofers. AFAIK the basic radio isn't even sold in the US. The 8" woofer of the hi-fi system tests very well. One can predict with a very high level of accuracy how a woofer will work using the Theile-Small specs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiele/Small_parameters
Publishing the T/S specs is SOP with manufacturers and sellers of home hi-fi and pro-sound drivers. No one with real audio chops would dream of buying a driver without first seeing the specs and then using speaker modeling software to see how it will work. The opposite is true of auto sound, where you very rarely see specs published.

The Ground Zero mentioned above is an exception, it does have specs. Software modeling shows that it does have higher sensitivity than stock in the upper bass, so it will sound louder, However, it does not go any lower than stock, so by no means does it approach what a separate trunk mounted sub will do. But this doesn't matter to you, as that driver is an 8".

That brings up the main problem with the base radio, the lack of a separate amp. It's very under powered. If you're going to upgrade going to a separate amp would be the first step, after which you may find the OEM drivers are adequate. This thread may help where the amp is concerned:
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1475424

If it’s still not enough you’re best off doing what the poster in that thread did, adding a trunk sub. The laws of acoustics are very inflexible in what they’ll allow any under seat woofer to accomplish, no matter how much it costs.

[mrcaesar]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

I'm not familiar with 6.5" under seat woofers. AFAIK the basic radio isn't even sold in the US. The 8" woofer of the hi-fi system tests very well. One can predict with a very high level of accuracy how a woofer will work using the Theile-Small specs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiele/Small_parameters
Publishing the T/S specs is SOP with manufacturers and sellers of home hi-fi and pro-sound drivers. No one with real audio chops would dream of buying a driver without first seeing the specs and then using speaker modeling software to see how it will work. The opposite is true of auto sound, where you very rarely see specs published.

The Ground Zero mentioned above is an exception, it does have specs. Software modeling shows that it does have higher sensitivity than stock in the upper bass, so it will sound louder, However, it does not go any lower than stock, so by no means does it approach what a separate trunk mounted sub will do. But this doesn't matter to you, as that driver is an 8".

That brings up the main problem with the base radio, the lack of a separate amp. It's very under powered. If you're going to upgrade going to a separate amp would be the first step, after which you may find the OEM drivers are adequate. This thread may help where the amp is concerned:
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1475424

If it’s still not enough you’re best off doing what the poster in that thread did, adding a trunk sub. The laws of acoustics are very inflexible in what they’ll allow any under seat woofer to accomplish, no matter how much it costs.

Thanks a lot

It really helped me what to decide.

My setup will be Focal Kevlar in front, Focal "Performance" for rear, 2 used hk/hifi oem subs, and an old Focal 27cm trunk sub awaiting for about 10 years in my mess/garage...
(Living in France, Focal stuff is available everywhere).

I never used (well, never thinked of using it ) software modelling, but it is very interesting.

I'm gonna give it a try, as some informations are available:

https://www.focal.com/sites/www.foca...ft-100-krs.pdf
https://www.focal.com/sites/www.foca...ical-sheet.pdf

Next step: choose my amp...

[mrcaesar]

Originally Posted by beanbaguk

The standard basic (non-hifi) subs are absolute garbage. I ran mine for a little while until I received my Ghost subs and the difference was shocking.

Most replacements are reasonable but the basic ones are junk.

Trust me....replace them if you can afford it!

Thanks

[Billfitz]

Those Focals both have less sensitivity and don't go as low as the stock BMW hi-fi midrange, and you'd need to alter the door to get them to fit. I can't say how they might compare to the base radio BMW midranges, as I don't have those to measure the T/S specs or frequency response.

[RoundRound]

Hello people,
I'm in the same position, looking to get (much) better sound than my base sound system.

I'm thinking of installing this set up a Morel Virtus 603 Nano:
https://www.morelhifi.com/product/vi...o-2-way-3-way/

I'll probably use Morel Hybrid Twitters I have (instead of the virtus's) and get a proper (but small) amp, I really want to keep the stock look/condition of the car.

What do you think? will this work?

[Billfitz]

I can't give an opinion, partly because I don't have specs for the OEM drivers used in the base system, partly because that Morel system doesn't list any specs. Nonetheless my advice a few posts back remains, the #1 deficiency of the base system is the lack of a separate amp. That's the first thing you should fix.

[RoundRound]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

I can't give an opinion, partly because I don't have specs for the OEM drivers used in the base system, partly because that Morel system doesn't list any specs. Nonetheless my advice a few posts back remains, the #1 deficiency of the base system is the lack of a separate amp. That's the first thing you should fix.

Morel is a serious company, of course it has specs:
https://www.morelhifi.com/wp-content...OR-WEBSITE.pdf

And yes, of course I'll add a proper amp.

While on the subject, which of the '6 channel + DSP' amps out there that fit the BMW (behind the HU - not in the boot) has the best specs/power/quality?

Thanks people

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by RoundRound

Morel is a serious company, of course it has specs:
https://www.morelhifi.com/wp-content...OR-WEBSITE.pdf

Those aren't specs. Specs at a minimum must include Qes, Qms, Fs, Vas, Sd, Re, Le, XMax and an SPL chart. Google: Theile-Small parameters.

[RoundRound]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

Those aren't specs. Specs at a minimum must include Qes, Qms, Fs, Vas, Sd, Re, Le, XMax and an SPL chart. Google: Theile-Small parameters.

I think I found it:
https://www.morelhifi.com/wp-content...ifications.pdf

What do you think? How well would it do compared to the default BMW 'sub' in the same enclosure assuming better amplification than just the HU?

Thank you!

[RoundRound]

While on the subject, do we know the physical dimensions of the base 'subs'? Especially height? what's the tallest woofer we can get in there? Also, any guess about the volume of the enclosure (box+Seal) in Cu ft?

Thank you!

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by RoundRound

I think I found it:
https://www.morelhifi.com/wp-content...ifications.pdf

That's a 6.5. I have no specs on the BMW 6.5, only the BMW 8 for the hi-fi system, as that's what I have in my car and measured the specs on. I can say it will have very limited output due to one spec, xmax (Max. Linear Excursion) which is how far the cone can travel. It's only 2.5mm. I wouldn't consider a driver with less than 6mm xmax, especially a 6.5, as you're already at a disadvantage with the lower cone area compared to an 8. I can't comment on the box either, for the same reason.

[twodoor]

Personally I think the OEM HiFi (676) subs sound very good if the stock DSP is replaced.
I got the Match PP86DSP, replaced the front door speakers with Eton B100W and left everything else stock. The sound is really good, night and day difference from stock HiFi.
I feel like I wouldn't get much more bass from the underseat subs and that I'd only get some deep chest-shaking bass with a trunk woofer.

[RoundRound]

So what's the bottom line?
Assuming proper amplification (100w per channel) and an aftermarket 'sub' (say the Jenhert x200) in the under-seat location - how low can it realistically go? 60hz? 40hz? lower?
As was pointed out repeatedly in this thread, there are physical imitations (mainly the enclosure size) that can't be overcome by a better driver/amp.

I'm trying to figure out if it's worth doing.

Thank you!

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by RoundRound

So what's the bottom line?
Assuming proper amplification (100w per channel) and an aftermarket 'sub' (say the Jenhert x200) in the under-seat location - how low can it realistically go? 60hz? 40hz? lower?

I'll gladly model that driver for you, if you provide the specs. Then I'll model the stock driver for you, again if you provide the specs. Without specs or actual response measurements no one can make an informed recommendation. I wish I could be more helpful, but I'm an engineer, not a clairvoyant.

[RoundRound]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

I'll gladly model that driver for you, if you provide the specs. Then I'll model the stock driver for you, again if you provide the specs. Without specs or actual response measurements no one can make an informed recommendation. I wish I could be more helpful, but I'm an engineer, not a clairvoyant.

Thanks mate, the only info I found about them is this:

CAR
Jehnert Sound Design HiFi Komponenten –
FREQUENCY RESPONSE
42 – 4.000 Hz
MAX. INSTALLATION DEPTH
50mm
INSTALLATION OPENING
184mm
IMPEDANZ
6 Ohm
KENNSCHALLDRUCK
91 db
RESONANZFREQUENZ
42 Hz
SCHWINGSPULE Ø
37mm
MAGNET-MATERIAL
Neodym
KORBDURCHMESSER
208mm

But I guess that's not the stats you're after...

My question is more about physics, if teh volume of the enclosure is very small, and the driver size is limited, it doesn't matter what drive we put there or how much power we push to it, it'll never reach XX frequency, because of physics, right? My question is can you guess how much XX is? 40hz? Higher? Lower?

Thank you very much!

[Billfitz]

There is something in acoustical engineering called Hoffman's Iron Law. To summarize, with respect to small box size, low frequency response and good sensitivity, you can have any two, but not all three. If you want low response along with good sensitivity you can't have a small box. If you want a small box along with low response you can't have good sensitivity. If you want a small box along with good sensitivity you can't have low response.
The easiest issue to overcome is sensitivity. A small box with good low frequency response but low sensitivity can be compensated for by using a driver with very long excursion (how far the cone can move) and very high power handling, along with a very high powered amp. The downside is that very long excursion high power drivers and high power amps don't come cheap. Where subs are concerned 100 watts isn't high power, 400 watts and up is high power.
Again, I can't address the base system with 6.5" woofers as I don't have one to measure. But having measured the specs of the 8" woofers in my hi-fi system I can safely say that in the under seat boxes it would take 400 watts of power handling, adequate excursion to deal with that 400 watts, and a 400 watt/channel amp driving them to get much better results. But if you move to a trunk mounted sub using a ten inch woofer in an adequately sized box a single 200 watt driver and 200 watt amp would do nicely.

As to getting any improvement with the base system, since it doesn't have a separate amp I doubt that it has more than 20 watts per channel available, if that. A separate amp would be a step in the right direction, especially one with EQ.

[RoundRound]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

There is something in acoustical engineering called Hoffman's Iron Law. To summarize, with respect to small box size, low frequency response and good sensitivity, you can have any two, but not all three. If you want low response along with good sensitivity you can't have a small box. If you want a small box along with low response you can't have good sensitivity. If you want a small box along with good sensitivity you can't have low response.
The easiest issue to overcome is sensitivity. A small box with good low frequency response but low sensitivity can be compensated for by using a driver with very long excursion (how far the cone can move) and very high power handling, along with a very high powered amp. The downside is that very long excursion high power drivers and high power amps don't come cheap. Where subs are concerned 100 watts isn't high power, 400 watts and up is high power.
Again, I can't address the base system with 6.5" woofers as I don't have one to measure. But having measured the specs of the 8" woofers in my hi-fi system I can safely say that in the under seat boxes it would take 400 watts of power handling, adequate excursion to deal with that 400 watts, and a 400 watt/channel amp driving them to get much better results. But if you move to a trunk mounted sub using a ten inch woofer in an adequately sized box a single 200 watt driver and 200 watt amp would do nicely.

As to getting any improvement with the base system, since it doesn't have a separate amp I doubt that it has more than 20 watts per channel available, if that. A separate amp would be a step in the right direction, especially one with EQ.

Thanks mate,
I most certainly plan to replace the stock system with proper speakers and amplification.

So basically we can conclude that realistically, considering the space limitations of the enclosure, it's impossible to get any true 'low bass' performance no matter the drive/amplification?

Thank you