01-22-2020, 06:32 PM | #67 |
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Regarding the hpfp stuff it's easier don't get me wrong but only required for a build of this calibre and full e85, and even then its way way more expensive to retrofit a pump that until tested could not work, i have spent way to much money on this engine, and out of the 2 fueling solutions, the CPI and port injection setup is the most complicated and also the cheaper upgrade over hpfp and some people are going to lean towards this due to budget reasons etc. If someone wants to splash cash on a hpfp retrofit! Please share your results! These coils besides being more durable over stock, provide a bigger spark to ignite fuel, this is needed when running high boost and high concentrations of e85 as the stock system doesn't create enough energy to ignite the fuel changing your spark plug gap can only do so much. Alot of research thats been done on why the N55 needs aftermarket coils also relates to this engine when pushing past the 400who mark and using 100% e85
Last edited by navardi; 01-22-2020 at 06:37 PM.. |
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01-25-2020, 03:29 PM | #68 | |
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01-29-2020, 08:16 AM | #69 | |
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01-29-2020, 08:37 AM | #70 | ||
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01-30-2020, 02:52 AM | #71 | |
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01-30-2020, 07:21 AM | #72 | ||
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02-20-2020, 12:05 AM | #73 |
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Port Injection Update
I have finalised the design for a port injection setup on this engine, and will be 3D printing it out of Nylon with Carbon fibre. If you're having trouble running full E85 on a stage 2 turbo and bigger but don't want to run CPI this will be the solution. Its a Port Injection Bracket that supports EV14 short style injectors and sits between the intake manifold and cylinder head. The BMS Port Injection controller linked with the N20 JB4 will operate this setup and Terry is adding support to the N20 firmware. Split seconds should also work but i am not using it. I am testing the waters here but i am happy to make some and sell them, once i have completed a test run for my car. Let me know if your interested and ill keep you updated but at this stage say 1.5 months away from completed testing etc on the car. Here's a picture of it! All the dimensions are 100% correct (printed a very weak test piece out of PLA first) final print is going to be 100% infill - which means it'll be a solid part capable of 230°C temps.
Uses the OEM intake manifold seals. Recommended injectors are Bosch EV14 short 550cc to help supplement the HPFP. Below is a pic of the setup |
02-20-2020, 12:45 PM | #74 |
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03-12-2020, 04:39 PM | #75 | |
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Could the port injection be used for wmi?
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Dude, congrats for your build! This is one of the most awesome stuff I've seen on these forums. It may be a fool question, but do you think that these port injections could be used for wmi in other builds? I'm planning to get a kit for myself in the future so I searched a little bit about how does it works in the M4 when I came across this video: Maybe I'm talking foolish stuff here, but I can see your 3d-printed piece being used for this purpose too. Last edited by WallaceK; 03-12-2020 at 09:00 PM.. |
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03-18-2020, 09:53 AM | #76 | |
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03-19-2020, 08:24 PM | #77 | |
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The thing is: On my country's market, an intercooler upgrade is more expensive than an aem wmi kit. There are some intercoolers around the same price, but they are usually weird chinese knockoffs, which makes me a bit unconfortable due to the lack of feedback with those products. I also have no clue about their quality control and claims. With that said, there is also the problem of carbon build up on intake valves. I'm already running a catch can, (not from the beginning of the car lifespan tho) but I don't think that will solve 100% of the problem. Also, walnut blasting from time to time (depending on the frequency) is almost out of question, due to the fact that the only shop that I could find that do the service is located almost 700km from my house. So I'm planning to do it myself when I get some free time, following Kies' instructions, from Kies Motorsports, but as I said, having to do it from time to time depending on the frequency would start to be a nuisance. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that a water & methanol injection will help me to maintain those valves cleaner, so that's a plus point for me on why bothering to go that far. Also... in my country is hard to find a good gas, so I think that maybe the meth could help to amp up the things and compensate for the gas quality? hmmm... I'm still about to find that out with a tuner. So, of course there is still alot of data to find out and considerations to do, but at first impressions, going this route looks to have more advantages and looks a bit more cost efficient to my specific case. That's exact what I was thinking! Since the aem kits are universal, I'm concerned about exact that, because it looks like the injector is installed on the last bend of the chargepipe. In my mind making it individually for each cylinder would be more efficient, but I'm not sure if I'm right or that's something really pratical. That's why I thought it would be nice to discuss that with you, since you came up with a lot of genius solutions for your build and I could see myself using something similar. Anyway, thanks again for your input and attention. |
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04-16-2020, 04:42 PM | #78 | |
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04-17-2020, 08:24 PM | #80 | |
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04-19-2020, 06:22 PM | #81 |
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No actual results yet, COVID-19 has caused a bunch of delays, and being home bored I was servicing some gaskets and my torx socket fell off and landed inside cylinder 3, in the event of trying to fish it out I accidentally started the car, mashing up my piston and cylinder head lol I made a YouTube video about it. But I also found this to be a great excuse to strip the engine this time coming back with even more mods, head porting and a EFR9280 turbo.
Although two of my mates in Australia are currently doing their builds that are 95% close to my current build and you should see some results within the next few months. But calculated power figures is around 450-500whp on E85 (100% E85) I have been spending alot of my time recently designing and fabricating a port injection bracket and a custom Port injection intake manifold!, Along with a custom PR Coils bracket and custom OTS baffles for our sumps. https://youtu.be/PCUvqzu5vV8 Last edited by navardi; 05-18-2020 at 09:47 AM.. |
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04-19-2020, 06:24 PM | #82 |
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Not really sure why that's relevant here specifically this thread or for the previous members post. Even if his 91 was poor quality a meth kit or e85 would still work out better than ACN 91 tune. Also us fuel is measured in AKI not RON 91 RON is different to 91 AKI (just called 91 in the USA)
Last edited by navardi; 04-19-2020 at 06:34 PM.. |
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04-19-2020, 09:01 PM | #83 | |
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04-20-2020, 02:51 AM | #84 | |
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05-14-2020, 11:52 PM | #85 |
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navardi Just reading through all of your updates after being off the forums for a while. You've had some hiccups but hot damn is this a cool build. Good on you bro!
I've been tossing around the idea of going with forged internals on my car (probably late this summer if I do end up going for it), and I wanted to pick your brain a bit if you've got the time. Also gonna tag D041987 cuz he knows some stuff too My goal is to have 400whp comfortably with little to no risk of failure, meaning I want my setup to be capable of holding 450-500whp with no intentions of really going there. I'm thinking that I could get away with Carillo Rods & Pistons, sleeved cylinders, various fasteners (head studs?) and a big turbo (and of course a good custom tune). Am I even remotely reasonable in assuming that? I see that you've done a bunch of other stuff with looking at port injection, ethanol, and various fueling and tons of other little stuff, but I'm not really looking to do that, if I don't have to in order to run 400whp. Basically what I'm asking is this: what is the minimum that needs to be done to reliably run 400whp as a daily driver? I'm assuming that all the work you've done isn't necessary for that, but I also don't want to skimp on anything at the expense of reliability. Thanks in advance for your input
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05-18-2020, 09:17 AM | #86 | |
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First I want to start this reply off by also tagging D041987 I would like to know your peak boost targets and what rpm that peak boost comes on at as I believe you have set the correct way to tune large turbo's on stock motors, i.e pushing peak TQ higher in the rpm band and not following "stock turbo Boost curves" for bigger turbos, my maths suggest 550nm at the wheels is the max TQ we can safely run on these motors and if you target that TQ at the right RPM it means you could make 400whp on a stock motor. But this is maths and more testing is needed which is why I have acquired a stock motor to do some testing on whilst my build motor is getting some even extra love. Now to reply to you rjd_F30 until I can prove that they way N20s are currently tuned with big turbo's is incorrect because no one really cares about this platform and most tuners are "N55 or bust" I stand by forged Motor for 400whp as there is known evident supporting bent rods near this figure on stock motors. CP pistons and rods with CARR rod bolts (WMC bolts are trash and should be avoided, for an extra $150-200 it's worth it, for the gains in HP/TQ the carr bolts can take) rods are 1500whp capable, pistons are about 1000whp (this is just from reading around, I received an email from CP stated that they would survive 800whp just fine, but how much HP and TQ a rod and piston can take depends on its application a 1000whp piston used in a drag engine won't survive being used in a rally application that piston could quick become a 400whp piston so know that depending on how you plan to use your car will change how much power the piston and rods can take. So that being said I recommend CP rods and piston with Carr bolts for the N20 for your power application. Sleeving the block is necessary, not just from a power point of view and rigidity point of view but also because unless you can get the factory plasma arc coating reapplied after you bore the block out (you should always have the block honed/bored for a new set of pistons and piston rings). Sleeves are stronger anyways - leave it up to the engine builder to source although 99% sure the VAC Motorsports N55 sleeves fit. Factory Mainstuds can be used if you don't want to spend money, ARP mainstuds/bedplate studs aren't necessary for 400whp but recommended. If you go with upgraded mainstuds get your engine builder to install these, they must be installed without washers, and the excess stud protruding from the nut must be removed so it won't interfere with the counterbalance module. Crankshaft tunnel tolerances must be rechecked incase you need a line hone(this is important and something your engine shop should do) ARP headstuds are something I would say you should do, just due to the amount of boost you're going to run, the head will get very close to lifting on the factory studs causing you to blow a headgasket. N55 ARP head stud kit or EVO X ARP head stud kits will fit but read my first page about the 4 corner head stud threads. Cut ring headgasket. Factory gasket is great but This gasket is better just get the install correct to avoid headaches. ACL rod bearings due to the increased load on the rods get performance rod bearings, due to the sizes rod bearings come in, get your engine builder to work out what sizes you need before ordering the bearings you may need to contact ACL directly for purchasing, they offer 3 sizes for the N20. Block needs to be notched for the rods, rotating assembly balanced. Oil pan baffle stock pan is shit let's be honest, install a baffle as per my guide. Stage 2 turbo, your choice of brand or you can diy a stage 2 or 2.2 turbo (I guess mines a 2.2 since it's a tad larger than the current stage 2 turbo's) Replace your oil feel line whilst your at it - recent BMW recall made for them. Replace your timing chain guides to the new set if you haven't already or your motor came with the newer set. Install an oil cooler and oil thermostat (this is super important, not having oil thermostat makes the oil take forever to warm up, and these pistons expand up to 15% in the bore so the longer the oil is colder the longer your running gear takes to warm up or provide sufficient lubrication meaning excessive wear on a cold start, or piston slap occuring until your motor is warm, which wears your piston skirts out. - Mossleman make a great bolt on kit (designed for an N55 but it fits the n20 just the oil radiator might need abit of adjustment to fit) Upgraded charge pipes, exhaust, downpipes, and the BIGGEST INTERCOOLER YOU CAN BUY FOR THE N20/N55 F SERIES this helps trust me Stage 2 LPFP upgrade. Custom ecu tune. Optional extras. Closed or semi closed deck, not really relevant for your power level but if you ever want to turn the power up later on I suggest getting it done helps eliminate cylinder wobble at high boost/cylinder pressures. ARP mainstuds (BMW M50 kit fits) since the motors open doing these now will help you if you want to go higher power later on. On a stage 2 turbo even on a stock motor 20 psi and above on full E85 and E30 mixtures the hpfp starts to die out. E30 mixtures do last longer and can be run at the 22psi range okay but it is taxing the hpfp alot, especially if EWG car. That Brazilian n20 that made 380 whp on a PS2 turbo run E30 and 24psi from like.3500-5000 which is an extremely short time to run the boost makes me.wonder if they started feeling the stock hpfp crash on e30 at that boost I know it started flaking for me 24 psi at 4000rpm but my turbo is a touch larger. But you should be fine to make.400whp without the use of ethanol, 24psi from 3500r until 6500rpm yields some good results in logs and maths says it should be over 400whp. You can drop the cost abit by running Maxspeedingrods connecting Rods for the N20 rated to 600hp with arp2000 rod bolts or 800ps with ARP LH19 Rod bolts, but the turbo and engine could handle 400whp no dramas and could with ethanol make even more but running ethanol would only be an option if you can't make 400whp on 93 (98 Ron ) and that's when I can tell you. You'd need to start looking at port injection. PR ignition coils won't be necessary for your build unless you look at running high mixes of Ethanol. Hopefully this answers your question, I'm sure you may have come across my posts in the BM3 Facebook page, I have made some posts about creating a custom intake manifold and port injection set-up. Any further questions just ask. Last edited by navardi; 05-20-2020 at 12:14 AM.. |
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05-18-2020, 01:01 PM | #87 | |
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I don't really plan to track this car, but I do plan to take it to the drag strip every once in a while, and of course it will still be my daily when this is all said and done, so I think I'm still gonna go with CP rods/pistons/carr bolts, even though it will be overkill for my application. Thanks for giving me other options though! So after reading through everything you've said (again, thank you), here's my current shopping list, followed by some more questions: Performance/Power Holding: CP Rods/Pistons + CARR bolts. VAC Motorsports N55 Sleeves ARP Mainstuds ARP N55 Head Stud Kit Cut Ring Headgasket ACL Rod Bearings Oil Pan Baffle Big Turbo ER FMIC Custom Tune (thinking Cary Jordan from JordanTuned) Stage 2 LPFP Oil Cooler and Thermostat Preventative Maintenance: Oil Feed Line Timing Chain/Guides All charged air piping Aaaand for the questions: I've heard a lot about dropping sleeves in various applications and I know that this can be a nightmare if it happens. From my understanding it's usually a result of bad installation, and I have an experienced engine builder near me so I'm not too worried about that, but still, is it something I should be wary of? Sorry to be an idiot: what's the difference between mainstuds and head studs? What is a cut ring headgasket and where can I source one? What turbo would you recommend? I'm leaning towards the MHI kit as it comes as a whole new unit with a wastegate and manifold. It says it can hold up to 32psi which I don't plan to even touch, so I think it should be fine for my goals, what do you think? My plan is to run 93 only, as E85 is kind of a bitch to find consistently around me. Will I still need to upgrade the LPFP if I'm only running 93 with no ethanol? Also, will the HPFP be able to keep up if I'm only running 93? I know it needs to pump more fuel if I'm running ethanol, so I'd guess it would be able to support a 93 only setup. Thank you again for all of your help! It's so helpful to have guys like you to help walk others through this process. Much appreciated brotha!
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05-18-2020, 08:09 PM | #88 |
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navardi Couple things to add after doing more research. Looks like the MHI turbo uses the stock turbine size so I'll probably have to go with pure stage 2 or something similar to get a bigger compressor and turbine.
Also: I talked to Cary Jordan and he's saying that the stock sleeves will be fine at 400whp. Would be a nice way to save some cash if that's the case, as sleeves will certainly be a ton of labor, and the parts aren't chump change either. What are your thoughts on NOT doing sleeves and leaving the block as is? Other than that, he pretty much recommended all the stuff that you did, plus potentially looking at an upgraded radiator.
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