[JD6]

Europe has form in this with referendums which go the 'wrong' way. There are three instances - two in Ireland (Nice and Lisbon Treaties) and one in Denmark over Maastricht where referendums have gone narrowly against the EU. On all 3 occasions these non-binding referendums were held again after some minor tinkering, and on all 3 occasions the vote reversed leading to strongly pro-EU outcomes.

The Brexit referendum was similarly non-binding, and it looks very much like we are moving towards only invoking article 50 in around December. By then we will have a new Prime Minister and quite possibly a general election too. The election would be almost bound to be a single issue election, and it may in itself produce a mandate for a new binding referendum.

Admittedly this all seems very undemocratic, but there is quite a lot to suggest this could happen. It is notable that Boris, Gove and IDS are in absolutely no hurry to invoke article 50.

I think the chance of Brexit is probably over 50%, but it is by far from a dead cert on past form. There seems to be a lot of regret, probably helped by the collapse in the pound and the stock market weakness.

I don't think the fat lady has started to sing just yet...

[Tengocity]

Yes I've been reading and listening to the media on this too. Whilst it may not be what I wanted I would feel very uneasy about a turn of events which effectively ignored the referendum result, and it would only worsen the already low level of trust in politicians, and the overall level of engagement in the democratic process.

However, the longer we delay invoking article 50 the better, on the assumption it's used for informal negotiation of the agreements. Once it's started that clock starts ticking, and our negotiating position when it hits 2 years is diminished.

[SkyJawa]

I think all those that voted remain would accept defeat if we didn't know the amount of muppets that voted leave....

- voted leave for no more reason than don't like DC
- voted leave because had no idea what else to do
- voted leave but the day after realised what they'd done and would have changed.

In a general election these fools would be voting for ukip, green, mrlp etc so in the grand scheme wouldn't matter, but in a yes/no vote then you are fooked over by the dumb.

[JD6]

I wouldn't be comfortable about ignoring the referendum either, but it may be the least bad option from a remain perspective.

It is notable that the Brexit leaders, or at least Farage was quite happy to ignore a referendum which went against him.


Nigel Farage: Narrow Remain win may lead to second referendum

The question of a second referendum was raised by Mr Farage in an interview with the Mirror in which he said: "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36306681

[InquisitiveA]

Originally Posted by SkyJawa

I think all those that voted remain would accept defeat if we didn't know the amount of muppets that voted leave....

- voted leave for no more reason than don't like DC
- voted leave because had no idea what else to do
- voted leave but the day after realised what they'd done and would have changed.

In a general election these fools would be voting for ukip, green, mrlp etc so in the grand scheme wouldn't matter, but in a yes/no vote then you are fooked over by the dumb.

Such breath-taking arrogance!

Yes clearly only SkyJawa voted thoughtfully and with consideration, everyone who voted for Leave voted for the wrong reasons and with ignorance and hate.

If only you could be benevolent dictator of the UK SkyJawa. Then we could do away with pesky Democracy and you could just decide what is best for us all...

[Wills2]

CMD has bought everyone some time with his resignation, Boris started changing his tone at the press conference the day after, this hasn't been ratified by parliament (and I think it needs to be?)

Everyone has gone to ground and disappeared today, everyone, well apart from that fool Corbyn.

If Junckers can stay off the sauce long enough to muddle together a reasonable sentence or two on the subject I'm sure something can be sorted out, before we head off the cliff edge and we all end up living in a council estate in Sunderland.

The EU have started to back track from the bolshy statements of come on then get out! And have now clarified we need to tell them they won't do anything nor can they to start the process etc...

Will be an interesting few months.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by JD6

I wouldn't be comfortable about ignoring the referendum either, but it may be the least bad option from a remain perspective.

It is notable that the Brexit leaders, or at least Farage was quite happy to ignore a referendum which went against him.


Nigel Farage: Narrow Remain win may lead to second referendum

The question of a second referendum was raised by Mr Farage in an interview with the Mirror in which he said: "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36306681

Yes, I suppose it could be argued as unfinished business, especially if the EU put some radical proposals on the table.

However, I'm not sure least bad for remain justifies riding roughshod over the democratic process, as the long term consequences of that will only worsen how our country feels about politicians, and could lead to serious splits within the country.

[....,,,,..,,..]

If this was to be unturned or not agreed to, I believe the UK would totally fragment.

When we pick the odd story the press or Twitter pick up.

Remember 17 million or so, voted to leave.

The people any of those who voted to remain should be blaming are those that never voted, yes a handful or prisoners, expats, however a huge chunk of people failed to.

Only 30% turn out in Scotland, start blaming the other 70% there, that is why we are out.

Saying that these people that don't vote, deserve what they get.

Anyhow, if this was to be reversed, I believe we would see strikes and riots like never before in the modern era.

Parliament and MP's would what little credibility they have.

We live in a parliamentary democracy, the people voted, you can't change rules or add in caveats after the fact.

Yes the top level of MP's and leave mob are crap, we need to be moving in business and trade leaders now.

A cross party select committee needs setup, however not one single cowardly scum on an SNP should be allowed to take part.

[SkyJawa]

Originally Posted by InquisitiveA

Such breath-taking arrogance!

Yes clearly only SkyJawa voted thoughtfully and with consideration, everyone who voted for Leave voted for the wrong reasons and with ignorance and hate.

If only you could be benevolent dictator of the UK SkyJawa. Then we could do away with pesky Democracy and you could just decide what is best for us all...

Its not arrogance, it's fact from what I've seen. Facts, you know the things your incapable of providing since the "win" about how you're going to fix it all.

Not all people who voted leave did it for the wrong reasons and I totally get and respect that, but there's too many that did through ignorance or lack of well provided information.

Dictator lol wtf are you talking about

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by Brigand

If this was to be unturned or not agreed to, I believe the UK would totally fragment.

When we pick the odd story the press or Twitter pick up.

Remember 17 million or so, voted to leave.

The people any of those who voted to remain should be blaming are those that never voted, yes a handful or prisoners, expats, however a huge chunk of people failed to.

Only 30% turn out in Scotland, start blaming the other 70% there, that is why we are out.

Saying that these people that don't vote, deserve what they get.

Anyhow, if this was to be reversed, I believe we would see strikes and riots like never before in the modern era.

Parliament and MP's would what little credibility they have.

We live in a parliamentary democracy, the people voted, you can't change rules or add in caveats after the fact.

Yes the top level of MP's and leave mob are crap, we need to be moving in business and trade leaders now.

A cross party select committee needs setup, however not one single cowardly scum on an SNP should be allowed to take part.

The turnout in Scotland was 67% not 30%.

[JD6]

Originally Posted by Brigand

If this was to be unturned or not agreed to, I believe the UK would totally fragment.

When we pick the odd story the press or Twitter pick up.

Remember 17 million or so, voted to leave.

The people any of those who voted to remain should be blaming are those that never voted, yes a handful or prisoners, expats, however a huge chunk of people failed to.

Only 30% turn out in Scotland, start blaming the other 70% there, that is why we are out.

Saying that these people that don't vote, deserve what they get.

Anyhow, if this was to be reversed, I believe we would see strikes and riots like never before in the modern era.

Parliament and MP's would what little credibility they have.

We live in a parliamentary democracy, the people voted, you can't change rules or add in caveats after the fact.

Yes the top level of MP's and leave mob are crap, we need to be moving in business and trade leaders now.

A cross party select committee needs setup, however not one single cowardly scum on an SNP should be allowed to take part.

There was a 67.2% turnout in Scotland.

I'm certainly not suggesting that we ignore the referendum result and carry on in the EU - that would cause chaos as you suggest. Rather that we hold a new referendum in light of the new circumstances. That might include some change of EU policy (when faced with other countries leaving), a new PM, and possibly a new government.

There will be major splits whichever way we go, but just perhaps the second referendum after some changes would be the least dividing option. This was after all a non-binding referendum. If Leave are confident that the referendum result represents the view of the people, it will happen again. 1.5 trillion pounds wiped off world markets yesterday might cause some to rethink what was scaremongering and what was real.

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

The turnout in Scotland was 67% not 30%.

My bad, yes that's correct.

So that's still 30% of voting population.

I reckon it was the South East and South west voting that swung it.

That's about 8 million between them voting with both around 51-52% for leaving.

Scotland had about the same number of people voting as Yorkshire and Humberside.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by Brigand

If this was to be unturned or not agreed to, I believe the UK would totally fragment.

When we pick the odd story the press or Twitter pick up.

Remember 17 million or so, voted to leave.

The people any of those who voted to remain should be blaming are those that never voted, yes a handful or prisoners, expats, however a huge chunk of people failed to.

Only 30% turn out in Scotland, start blaming the other 70% there, that is why we are out.

Saying that these people that don't vote, deserve what they get.

Anyhow, if this was to be reversed, I believe we would see strikes and riots like never before in the modern era.

Parliament and MP's would what little credibility they have.

We live in a parliamentary democracy, the people voted, you can't change rules or add in caveats after the fact.

Yes the top level of MP's and leave mob are crap, we need to be moving in business and trade leaders now.

A cross party select committee needs setup, however not one single cowardly scum on an SNP should be allowed to take part.

Yes we do, what they vote for stands, this isn't the same.

[AndyMD]

Isn't Farage now technically unemployed? He's tried about 6 times to get elected in the UK parliament and failed?

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by Wills2

Yes we do, what they vote for stands, this isn't the same.

That's what I am meaning, if parliament change or interfere with this, there will be huge repercussions.

As its a parliamentary democracy, in theory it could be blocked in parliament.

We don't have a People's Democracy (Marxism).

[mpawood]

It's would be political suicide for an MP to vote against leaving the EU if it went before Parliament following the referendum.

I think DC has done us a massive favour by resigning and giving us a chance to really think it through. No we can't control immigration any better, no it isn't 350 million etc. I also don't think Boris truly wants to leave the EU as he realises he can't get what he promised.

I see it as a real possibility that a general election occurs before article 50 and after we get some minor deals with the EU. That will allow Boris to lead the Tories and tactfully campaign for a binding referendum which he excludes himself from (since he can't do a U turn, doesn't want to leave and doesn't want to lose).

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by mpawood

It's would be political suicide for an MP to vote against leaving the EU if it went before Parliament following the referendum.

I think DC has done us a massive favour by resigning and giving us a chance to really think it through. No we can't control immigration any better, no it isn't 350 million etc. I also don't think Boris truly wants to leave the EU as he realises he can't get what he promised.

I see it as a real possibility that a general election occurs before article 50 and after we get some minor deals with the EU. That will allow Boris to lead the Tories and tactfully campaign for a binding referendum which he excludes himself from (since he can't do a U turn, doesn't want to leave and doesn't want to lose).

There is no turning things around without pissing off 17 million people.

We are out people should just get on with it.

How can we not control immigration any better?

No new rules have been put in place? Nothing has been debated.

For starters we can say EU citizens now have same playing field as those from Commonwealth, no work visa, no job, then back home.

That to me would be a huge improvement, at present someone spending 20 years in armed forces has to leave once their time is up and go back to New Zealand for example.

Some EU bloke working at a car wash, loses his job, they can stay in the UK.

Change the rules make them equal.

[TouringPleb]

Originally Posted by AndyMD

Isn't Farage now technically unemployed? He's tried about 6 times to get elected in the UK parliament and failed?

I'm really hoping now he's got what he wants that he will fuck off somewhere and I never have to see or hear him again.

[TonyMaloni]

Originally Posted by SkyJawa

I think all those that voted remain would accept defeat if we didn't know the amount of muppets that voted leave....

- voted leave for no more reason than don't like DC
- voted leave because had no idea what else to do
- voted leave but the day after realised what they'd done and would have changed.

In a general election these fools would be voting for ukip, green, mrlp etc so in the grand scheme wouldn't matter, but in a yes/no vote then you are fooked over by the dumb.

WHAT A CRETIN YOU ARE.
I voted to leave as my business has been consistantly held back by being a member. I could explain but I don't think you'd understand.
I've also seen what huge uncontrolled numbers of EU immigrants can do to a community. Crime and anti social behaviour increases, can't get an appointment at the doctors, can't get your child into your local school. FACT.
I must be a muppet racist right?

[BnB]

Originally Posted by TonyMaloni

WHAT A CRETIN YOU ARE.
I voted to leave as my business has been consistantly held back by being a member. I could explain but I don't think you'd understand.
I've also seen what huge uncontrolled numbers of EU immigrants can do to a community. Crime and anti social behaviour increases, can't get an appointment at the doctors, can't get your child into your local school. FACT.
I must be a muppet racist right?

Can you please explain to me how your business has been held up? I definitely will understand as I've owned a business trading in Europe (and the rest of the world) for 20 years. For me the main complaints surround extra admin around the treatment of VAT. However the free movement of labour has helped increase my turnover and profits and consequently increased my corporation and personal tax payments into the UK's coffers.

I'm really interested to understand what problems you experience doing business as a consequence of the EU.

[mpawood]

Originally Posted by TonyMaloni

WHAT A CRETIN YOU ARE.
I voted to leave as my business has been consistantly held back by being a member. I could explain but I don't think you'd understand.
I've also seen what huge uncontrolled numbers of EU immigrants can do to a community. Crime and anti social behaviour increases, can't get an appointment at the doctors, can't get your child into your local school. FACT.
I must be a muppet racist right?

You must surely want to retain access to the single market and so much surely see that we will have to continue to accept free movement of people right?

[simon.]

From the guardians comments section:

If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.