[Watsey]

I expect this is going to get some very strong views, but we should be able to do that in a mature way. Let's see.

What's my starting point on this ? White, British, in my 50s, 'normal' financially comfortable working family/background, and I've not experienced any prejudice based on colour or ethnicity. My frame of personal reference is therefore zero; purely my own opinions.

Emotions which are running high (of course) due to repeated racist abuses in society, brought to the fore through the shocking and deliberate killing of George Floyd, but I question the longer-term value of tearing-down monuments (just using these as an example for the debate) as a means of changing societal and cultural views.

Placing figures on top of a monument may place them on a physical and cultural pedestal, but does this mean that everyone looks up to them as virtuous individuals ? Absolutely not.

Should they be torn down and consigned to museums, where few may ever see them and many will never know what they represent, or should they be left in place as a reminder (with education to promote it) of some aspects of our dubious past and a visible reminder of the standards which we should rise above ?

Were Bo Selecta, Little Britain and Gone With the Wind each made with the purpose of dividing society, or were they parodies and portrayals of their time ? I hold the latter view, and it seems an over-reaction to remove them from streaming channels. LB was hilarious; definitely a very light-hearted and inward look at British people which also challenged prejudice and bigotry, in a ground-breaking style. Does the use of humour belittle the issues ? Maybe, but I don't think so.

Was Churchill a hero or a villain ? The question has been asked many times.

Was Nelson an explorer, an invader, a white supremacist or a defender of Britain's shores ? Should his column also be razed to the ground ?

In the interests of parity should the monuments to Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela also be removed from public view and just made a subject of historical record ?

Which is better, a sterilised culture or letting statues of oppressors, capitalists AND civil rights leaders all stand as a prominent reminder of the world's past and its progress towards a society of equals ?

This quote from a Tweet mentioned in a Guardian article in 2017 resonates with me : “Its History – we cant & shouldn’t re-write it – we learn from it."

Definitely interested in everyone's views on this.

[MashinBenzin]

It's really difficult to place ourselves in the shoes of those who have suffered racism. The Colston statue is definitely one that should have come down and gone into a museum a long time ago.

Definitely a grey area, though, and I don't think that a Churchill statue should come down. A balanced, with the benefit of hindsight, plaque might make sense.

Racism is rife, a lot of it sub-conscious, a chunk of it conscious but the racist attempts to hide it, then the obvious front men.

Managing a team that included Indian, Nigerian, 'white other' nationalities, I saw a lot of the first two categories of racism from some of the white Brits. Sadly difficult to eradicate and hopefully the new movement makes things easier to act upon.

Not just in this country - my team in Singapore had some Filipinos who were treated pretty differently, including officially, and suffer fairly overt racism. A team in Austria, many of whom could never treat their South American members as equals. These were fairly well paid 60-90k euro permanent roles, not bottom of the barrel. New York another story again, both most and least prejudiced in some ways.

Sorry, wayyy off-topic, but just trying to say that from personal experience it's really still a large problem and I do understand the boiling point that has been reached. Whilst not condoning every action that is happening right now.

[225]

I start in the same position as others, I can't put myself in the same shoes as someone who has suffered racism. However things need to calm down a it so a proper discussion and change can be had.

Case in point is the Rhodes statue in Oxford. He had a mixed past shall we say but the foundation with his name has really helped Africans and also made it possible for Africans to study at Oxford.

So do you rip down a statue but keep the name?

The likes of Labour jumping on the band wagon with staue reviews or what ever its called doesn't help. Nor does alot of people with time on their hands currently.

I say keep the momentum of change but move it to something more useful than mobs chanting at statues. As for defacing the likes of Churchill then I hope they get locked up, not because he was a Saint but its criminal damage. Also someone said to me today, if Churchill hadn't help defeat Hilter there would be no Jewish people or people with non white skin at all in Europe now.

[JustChris]

https://www.toppletheracists.org/

[Colmsport]

Racism is two way.

My personal opinion is it’s an over reaction & already people are jumping on the bandwagon, digging up allegations of things that happened to them years ago. Seems to be the world we live in now.

Where will it stop?? Let’s be fair, almost everything on TV could upset someone in today’s snowflake generation. May as well just stop broadcasting everything!

I’m not trying to play things down here as there are obvious issues, but some degree of common sense needs to prevail.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by 225

Also someone said to me today, if Churchill hadn't help defeat Hilter there would be no Jewish people or people with non white skin at all in Europe now.

Indeed so and without the Churchill-led government in all probability people - regardless of colour - wouldn't have had the sort of rights to protest and demonstrate we've seen exercised in recent days.

The events surrounding George Floyd's death have rightfully been condemned by almost all right minded individuals but IMO some of the subsequent desire to erase and deny parts of our history actually runs a risk of diluting and undermining any consensus movement against racism. In my view wanting to remove monuments to the likes of Churchill and James Cook is ridiculous almost to a point of being offensive and I doubt I'm alone in holding that opinion.

And looking at this more widely, if we want to remove symbols of times and events that are uncomfortable to some what about, say, the Colosseum in Rome? A venue where people - many of whom were slaves - were murdered as a matter of routine for the entertainment of others so do we need to take a wrecking ball to that in case it now offends some of the modern generation?

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Colmsport

Racism is two way.

My personal opinion is it’s an over reaction & already people are jumping on the bandwagon, digging up allegations of things that happened to them years ago. Seems to be the world we live in now.

Where will it stop?? Let’s be fair, almost everything on TV could upset someone in today’s snowflake generation. May as well just stop broadcasting everything!

I’m not trying to play things down here as there are obvious issues, but some degree of common sense needs to prevail.

I don’t think digging up things that happened to them in the past is a problem at all. A good friend of mine is married to a black girl, we both were at school with her.

She was pretty much the only black girl in a school of 2,000. And she was bullied for it.

She’s a very strong lady, she works at a hospice charity and is also a magistrate giving back to the community. Under Brexit rules she wouldn’t even exist as her dad wouldn’t have been allowed into the country.

But even as a strong person, not far under the surface is the hurt from the bullying. It never disappears. And as others are suffering the same still, why shouldn’t she be allowed to talk about her past? She certainly wasn’t allowed to at the time.

I had a couple of small incidents of bullying at school, and even now they can sometimes still be raw in the right circumstances. She was bullied for years and incessantly, no wonder feelings are strong for some.

And it didn’t take long to surface in the protests again for all those doubters that think it doesn’t exist in the UK, look at the crowd in Hertfordshire that racially abused the protesters.

Yes some have gone over the top, I also think that the protests shouldn’t have happened at all in the current pandemic. But the fact that they did despite all that risk shows how strong these feelings are for some people. There were far too many people out in most cities and towns across the UK to say it was people who are just out to cause trouble and protesting for the sake of protesting. It obviously resonated with the lives and experiences of a lot of people and couldn’t be held back, even now.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

I don’t think digging up things that happened to them in the past is a problem at all.

I don't disagree with that but what's happening at the moment is some people aren't digging-up things that happened to them, they're making an issue out of things that happened hundreds of years ago.

Personally I'm not proud of everything our ancestors did but to me there has to be an appreciation that attitudes and values change over time and hence history isn't something to be erased or expunged, it's something to be understood and learned from. We used to send children up chimneys but now we don't, we used to have dismal levels of Health & Safety in the workplace but now we don't and, yes, we used to trade in slaves from Africa but now we don't (and haven't for almost 200 years).

I'm all for putting an end to the sort of disgraceful treatment suffered by George Floyd and I have no desire to see anyone disadvantaged as a result of the colour of their skin. However, the idea you pick over everything people like Churchill and Cook did wrong - and vilify their memory for that whilst ignoring everything else they achieved - is wrong and actually a distraction from the current issue at hand IMO.

In similar vein, I don't take a dim view of the Roman Empire even though they invaded Britain and persecuted many of our inhabitants. It happened and, while they certainly did some awful things by reference to the standards of today, the Romans were ahead of their time in many ways and hence on balance are (IMO) a culture to be more celebrated than condemned.

In my view you can't sensibly apply the values of today to the history of yesterday but that seems to be what some people are trying to do at the moment...

[KRS_SN]

The imperialist enslaver and plunderer of many commonwealth countries (the Royal family) is celebrated in the UK. A blind eye is turned by all...I have nothing else to say.

[Hooded]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

enslaver.

That’ll be past African rulers who sold their own people as well.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...se-slave-trade

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by JNW1

I don't disagree with that but what's happening at the moment is some people aren't digging-up things that happened to them, they're making an issue out of things that happened hundreds of years ago.

That’s a minority of the people and deflecting attention from the real issues. And plenty are happy to focus their attention more on that than what the protests are about, which kind of proves their point for them. People are less bothered about the abuse of people alive now than they are the destruction of inanimate statues of people long dead.

I have several friends who are posting in disgust on their Facebook threads videos of it. Their disgust and videos of George Floyd are conspicuous in their absence when you look further down their threads.

[jackstrath]

White male, Its a hard one, I feel the media certainly stirs it up which isnt helping. Example being the killing of George floyd vs Lee Rigby, I dont remember tens of thousands protesting and rioting across the globe for Lee rigby death?

As for the past and history items, defacing them is criminal damage and i dont agree with that, as mention above that is our/the worlds history, ripping it down or changing it now isn't going to change what happened, that moment has been and gone. Do we flatten places like auschwitz and the colosseum because of there ill related past? Where do you stop? Why are people so fixed on whats already happened.... Move forward, together!

Racism dose sadly exist, Iv only experienced it twice that i can recall, did it bother me? not really, maybe because it wasn't to an abusive level, wasn't a nice feeling but nothing more. Im sure if it was a daily thing even the non abusive level would be enough to want a change.

I feel the Uk is a very acceptable place to live on the whole, We allow places of worship to be built, welcome all religions, and are a fairly mixed race society (maybe not so much in scotland with skin colour), other countrys will not allow that...

There is a very interesting video with famous black people asking about the topic of racism and there answers to it are not what youd expect.. its got Denzial Washington, Little wayne and Morgan freeman in it if you want to have a look, a small minority i understand but all started from humble beginnings.

Edit: I actually dont like talking about it, and its not because i want to ignore it or pretend it doesn't happen, with out sounding soft it upsets me to think people are bullied and discriminated for something so simple as there skin colour... its sad.... Iv got a few Chinese mates and the last few months for them have been interesting purely because of this covid-19 saga and where it originated.... its pathetic how some people can actually go out there way just to be dickheads...

[2CRO4TV]

Originally Posted by Colmsport

Racism is two way.

My personal opinion is it's an over reaction & already people are jumping on the bandwagon, digging up allegations of things that happened to them years ago. Seems to be the world we live in now.

Where will it stop?? Let's be fair, almost everything on TV could upset someone in today's snowflake generation. May as well just stop broadcasting everything!

I'm not trying to play things down here as there are obvious issues, but some degree of common sense needs to prevail.

A lot of the western wealth is built on slavery and oppression why is pointing that out now an issue. The past should not be looked at with rose tinted glasses.

I'm black African and moved to the Uk in 97 to study. I have been racially abused throughout my time in the Uk both direct and indirect. My upbringing has always made me more determined to succeed than most and these incidents only increased that determination but this is not always the case.

Just look at elite running the country and ask if they represent the actual makeup of the present day UK with the diverse cultures which we all love and enjoy. This shows the glass ceiling that is not easy to get through as a non white person.

There is a lot of racism from non whites but is that due to resentment due to the lack of opportunities provided? I think that is the main driver but as with all things there are always bad people in every demographic.

[2CRO4TV]

Originally Posted by Hooded

That’ll be past African rulers who sold their own people as well.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...se-slave-trade

Not as simple as that please do your research on these matters.
These chiefs were bribed with gold and guns for their fellow brothers rather than the explorers sharing their knowledge for the improvement of the lives of the people they met on the journey.

[2CRO4TV]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

I don't think digging up things that happened to them in the past is a problem at all. A good friend of mine is married to a black girl, we both were at school with her.

She was pretty much the only black girl in a school of 2,000. And she was bullied for it.

She's a very strong lady, she works at a hospice charity and is also a magistrate giving back to the community. Under Brexit rules she wouldn't even exist as her dad wouldn't have been allowed into the country.

But even as a strong person, not far under the surface is the hurt from the bullying. It never disappears. And as others are suffering the same still, why shouldn't she be allowed to talk about her past? She certainly wasn't allowed to at the time.

I had a couple of small incidents of bullying at school, and even now they can sometimes still be raw in the right circumstances. She was bullied for years and incessantly, no wonder feelings are strong for some.

And it didn't take long to surface in the protests again for all those doubters that think it doesn't exist in the UK, look at the crowd in Hertfordshire that racially abused the protesters.

Yes some have gone over the top, I also think that the protests shouldn't have happened at all in the current pandemic. But the fact that they did despite all that risk shows how strong these feelings are for some people. There were far too many people out in most cities and towns across the UK to say it was people who are just out to cause trouble and protesting for the sake of protesting. It obviously resonated with the lives and experiences of a lot of people and couldn't be held back, even now.

So true the experience makes or breaks people and all due to the colour of ones skin which should make no difference at all.

[MashinBenzin]

@jackstrath just wanted to answer your point about Lee Rigby. The reason why there weren't mass riots is that people thought "that's horrendous" rather than something like "that's horrendous, reminds me of the way I'm regularly mistreated, my parents' and grandparents' stories of racism and how my great great great great grandfather's generation were enslaved".

And of course, the racists - EDF types - did try to foment riots, but the masses weren't buying it.

[Skwirrel]

A timely and interesting program shown recently on Channel 5 : Portillo's Empire Journey shows the British have a lot of history that we should not be proud of.

I think the point being made about removing statues (as an example) is that they are a celebration of someone's life and their historical impact verses a memorial to the lives lost as a result of the same history. Quite a different perspective depending on which side you look at it from.

Discrimination and prejudice of any form to anyone is unacceptable. The UK is mostly a peaceful and inclusive nation that is all the better for its multicultural make up.

Should we arbitrarily remove all indicators of past wrongs that are now viewed in a different context? No. But should we have the debate, seek to provide balance, greater tolerance and empathy and make changes to accommodate another viewpoint? Absolutely, I believe we have much more to gain than lose if we take this standpoint.

[jackstrath]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

@jackstrath just wanted to answer your point about Lee Rigby. The reason why there weren't mass riots is that people thought "that's horrendous" rather than something like "that's horrendous, reminds me of the way I'm regularly mistreated, my parents' and grandparents' stories of racism and how my great great great great grandfather's generation were enslaved".

And of course, the racists - EDF types - did try to foment riots, but the masses weren't buying it.

Yeh totally agree with your points, i still dont think the media at the time covered it in the likes of the USA for example, is that because not everyone can relate to it? Id think given the amount of Service people and there familys in the USA it could be easy to relate? I know it doesnt go back to there history the same way but thats half my point about wanting to move forward and change.
I think given the current situation around lock down and such i think people are almost looking at it as an excuse to go out... which is wrong.
The pictures and videos of the C***s throwing rocks and all sorts at our police is out of order, boils my piss that.

[Hooded]

Originally Posted by 2CRO4TV

Not as simple as that please do your research on these matters.
These chiefs were bribed with gold and guns for their fellow brothers rather than the explorers sharing their knowledge for the improvement of the lives of the people they met on the journey.

It’s still wrong though and what they did was bad. You can’t pick and choose who to blame, everyone involved with slavery has to take some of the blame. The Black leaders who sold their own people into slavery are more directly to blame than any white British man alive today.

Thankfully slavery was abolished a long time ago here in Britain and we can’t change the past, so we need to concentrate on fixing what’s wrong at the moment instead.

[Alscoob]

Nobody has the right to tear down monuments irrespective of their perceived opinion, that in my view is vandalism and pure criminal damage. History is history, learn from it and move forward.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Hooded

It’s still wrong though and what they did was bad. You can’t pick and choose who to blame, everyone involved with slavery has to take some of the blame. The Black leaders who sold their own people into slavery are more directly to blame than any white British man alive today.

Thankfully slavery was abolished a long time ago here in Britain and we can’t change the past, so we need to concentrate on fixing what’s wrong at the moment instead.

Exactly, so why is everyone focusing on the few causing the damage instead of the real issue?

It’s actually being used as an excuse to sit back and do nothing for another generation.

Slavery is what started most of this, it isn’t the current issue. Racism is. I see very few posts acknowledging and condemning that.

I see a lot of posts condemning the damage of cars and statues though.

Talking about black leaders selling their people, cars and statues being damaged etc, is just being used as a reason not to do anything at best. And at worst a justification of why it is ok to be that way.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Alscoob

Nobody has the right to tear down monuments irrespective of their perceived opinion, that in my view is vandalism and pure criminal damage. History is history, learn from it and move forward.

A statue is generally put up to celebrate great achievements and to celebrate their lives. It is not a generally about a history lesson. People don’t commissions statues and monuments to record history. The same as naming roads, it’s honouring someone.

If it these things were just there to record history we might have the Adolf Hitler stand at Bayern Munich, but we don’t.

Museums exist to record history, both good and bad.