[martinf79]

Originally Posted by 300hp

Find me facts that prove awd cannot handle a course as well as rwd.

For now I will leave you with this fact

0-60 4.8s x drive
0-60 5.1 rwd

S4 0-60 4.9

All mfgs claims.

Until we have the facts, everything else is a pissing contest

Guess the RWD F30 335i beats all of those, no??? lol

F30 335i Reaches 0-60 in 4.7sec (Motor Trend Video Review):

http://speeddistrict.com/item/3833/

Did I win the pissing match?

[JohnVidale]

Originally Posted by martinf79

(1) AWD drive has nothing to do w/ stopping or (2) even traction if the tires don't grip.

Just one detail - I buy (1), but (2) seems misleading. If a tire loses grip and locks up, doesn't the x-drive quickly release it, so that it can regain traction? So (2) only applied momentarily when grip is lost, and partially applies when the direction the car is traveling differs from the direction the tire is pointed.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by martinf79

Please explain to me how the benefit of AWD impacts the physics of stopping on snow/ice w/ rock hard/ice puck tires and stopping distance???

Last time I checked, AWD drive has nothign to do w/ stopping or even traction if the tires don't grip.

Think you're opening yourself up to a can of whoop ass on this site... just forewarning you.

My post makes no reference to being better than rwd, in fact I go on to say I park the car when they is snow on the road. I have absolutely no desire to drive anything but my X5 when roads are covered in snow. If I can park it as well then that's my best outcome. Safest place to be when it snows is at home.

I am trying to water down these comments of rwd superiority over awd. Not trashing rwd at all.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by martinf79

Guess the RWD F30 335i beats all of those, no??? lol

F30 335i Reaches 0-60 in 4.7sec (Motor Trend Video Review):

http://speeddistrict.com/item/3833/

Did I win the pissing match?

Lol, yes you won the pissing contest

[martinf79]

Originally Posted by JohnVidale

Just one detail - I buy (1), but (2) seems misleading. If a tire loses grip and locks up, doesn't the x-drive quickly release it, so that it can regain traction? So (2) only applied momentarily when grip is lost, and partially applies when the direction the car is traveling differs from the direction the tire is pointed.

It will release it in hopes of slowing down the wheel to regain traction and/or transfer power to a wheel that has traction. If none of the wheels are able to gain traction... guess what... you don't go anywhere.

Summer tires in below freezing termperatures are like hockey pucks. Ice gets logged in the grooves and the tire becomes one rock-hard solid piece of rubber (as there's no where for the snow, water and ice to go). You essentially have zero traction.

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by 300hp

Find me facts that prove awd cannot handle a course as well as rwd.

For now I will leave you with this fact

0-60 4.8s x drive
0-60 5.1 rwd

S4 0-60 4.9

All mfgs claims.

Until we have the facts, everything else is a pissing contest

0-60 times will always be faster on a full on power launch with AWD. You are able to rev to the red line and side step the clutch. How often do you do that on the street? If you do, you better like the smell of burnt clutch

On wet roads the AWD leaves the line cleanly, but other than that it doesn't offer any real advantage.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

0-60 times will always be faster on a full on power launch with AWD. You are able to rev to the red line and side step the clutch. How often do you do that on the street? If you do, you better like the smell of burnt clutch

On wet roads the AWD leaves the line cleanly, but other than that it doesn't offer any real advantage.

Given BMW has 0-60 at 5.1 and MT has 4.7, I am inclined to believe BMW times are not the clutch burning methods. These are fairly conservative estimates. I don't think it matters the type of surface, x drive will win to 60.

The issue we need to decide here with facts is given the same track, which will be faster and by how much. Here I think (start pissing contest here) the result will be close (end pissing contest).

[300hp]

[QUOTE=martinf

Summer tires in below freezing termperatures are like hockey pucks. Ice gets logged in the grooves and the tire becomes one rock-hard solid piece of rubber (as there's no where for the snow, water and ice to go). You essentially have zero traction.[/QUOTE]

Exactly why in my original post I said above freezing with no snow on road. That's why I parked the car for 2 days this winter. If you are trying to tell me to change my set up so I can drive 2 more days a year, I am sorry, it's not going to happen

[JohnVidale]

Originally Posted by martinf79

It will release it in hopes of slowing down the wheel to regain traction and/or transfer power to a wheel that has traction. If none of the wheels are able to gain traction... guess what... you don't go anywhere.

Summer tires in below freezing termperatures are like hockey pucks. Ice gets logged in the grooves and the tire becomes one rock-hard solid piece of rubber (as there's no where for the snow, water and ice to go). You essentially have zero traction.

I'm not claiming one doesn't benefit a lot from snow tires, just that traction can be partial, and partial traction is better than none.

I want a tenacious grip on the road, others weigh more heavily agile performance in good road conditions - I'll prefer x-drive, they won't.

I think these conflicting advantages hold in a broader range of road conditions than the worst blizzards, but that's just my opinion.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by JohnVidale

I'm not claiming one doesn't benefit a lot from snow tires, just that traction can be partial, and partial traction is better than none.

I want a tenacious grip on the road, others weigh more heavily agile performance in good road conditions - I'll prefer x-drive, they won't.

I think these conflicting advantages hold in a broader range of road conditions than the worst blizzards, but that's just my opinion.

If in area where temp are rarely below freezing and snow accumulates on road for periods less than say 2 weeks the benefits of winter tires are negligible in my view. You are only benefiting for 2 out of 12 weeks at most. In my case I would have only benefited for 2 days this winter.

[martinf79]

Originally Posted by 300hp

If in area where temp are rarely below freezing and snow accumulates on road for periods less than say 2 weeks the benefits of winter tires are negligible in my view. You are only benefiting for 2 out of 12 weeks at most. In my case I would have only benefited for 2 days this winter.

Your statement is downplaying the need for winter tires... wouldn't the same argument you are making for the lack of need of winter rubber also hold true for the need for xdrive then?

Which begs the question... RWD w/ winters is less than expensive, more fun, better fuel effificency, less maintaneance... when compared to Xdrive.

If you're going to go AWD and not drive it when it snows... ummm... am I the only one trying to figure out what the point is then?? Why get it to begin with?

[300hp]

Originally Posted by martinf79

Your statement is downplaying the need for winter tires... wouldn't the same argument you are making for the lack of need of winter rubber also hold true for the need for xdrive then?

Which begs the question... RWD w/ winters is less than expensive, more fun, better fuel effificency, less maintaneance... when compared to Xdrive.

If you're going to go AWD and not drive it when it snows... ummm... am I the only one trying to figure out what the point is then?? Why get it to begin with?

Awd despite its added weight is proven to be faster than rwd at least in a straight line but there are no hard facts to prove rwd is faster on tracks.

After driving the AH3, the tq monster, I realized unless I am in an M3, I would rather have the 3er that makes the most of its available power, there is no doubt that's the x drive model. Agreed this is at the expense of gas mileage but come on, 2mpg? After spending 335i money 2mpg is something to consider? If my calculations are right that's less than $100/yr in gas costs.

FYI, parking the car is a choice, I can still drive it and I have, but I prefer being at home now.

Alternatives:

1) rwd with winter tire set up. Overkill in my view given said 2 days.
2)rwd with summer set up. Could prove dangerous in the winter, having awd helps with traction in the snow but both set ups will be dangerous when stopping in the snow.
3) awd with all seasons. All seasons suck. Period.

[JohnVidale]

Originally Posted by 300hp

You are only benefiting for 2 out of 12 weeks at most. In my case I would have only benefited for 2 days this winter.

I've got a very steep hill in front of my house on which I can skid when dry, let alone when wet or icy. I have a hard time believing no one here tries to accelerate when skidding around a corner.

These arguments of zero benefits except in icy blizzards near the North Pole seem ill-posed.

I'm not claiming x-drive is supreme, but just that it provides better traction in acceleration more than 1% of the time.

[ckimmel]

It would be great if a reputable comparo would be done treating the 2 vehicles as if they are what they are, different cars.

I suppose there is no money in it like there is in comparing between manufacturers, but as we have found AGAIN, there certainly is interest.

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by 300hp

Given BMW has 0-60 at 5.1 and MT has 4.7, I am inclined to believe BMW times are not the clutch burning methods. These are fairly conservative estimates. I don't think it matters the type of surface, x drive will win to 60.

The issue we need to decide here with facts is given the same track, which will be faster and by how much. Here I think (start pissing contest here) the result will be close (end pissing contest).

xDrive wins the 0-15mph drags...absolutely no doubt.......the RWD just spins it's wheels.

....but.............roll ons from 10mph and the RWD will not lose. Not saying there will be a big difference but the xDrive is heavier and has more drag so will struggle.

On track the xDrive will suffer from more under steer (unavoidable consequence of extra drag on front wheels), it is heavier, so on the brakes earlier, lower apex speed (weight again and under steer), more grip out the corners, but come on we are talking 300hp here, hardly a tyre burner. I'd be faster in the RWD than I would in xDrive

[300hp]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

xDrive wins the 0-15mph drags...absolutely no doubt.......the RWD just spins it's wheels.

....but.............roll ons from 10mph and the RWD will not lose. Not saying there will be a big difference but the xDrive is heavier and has more drag so will struggle.

On track the xDrive will suffer from more under steer (unavoidable consequence of extra drag on front wheels), it is heavier, so on the brakes earlier, lower apex speed (weight again and under steer), more grip out the corners, but come on we are talking 300hp here, hardly a tyre burner. I'd be faster in the RWD than I would in xDrive

Your signature suggests a racing heritage

I am not going to pretend I know more than you in this respect, however at least you can acknowledge we need the side by side comparison of track times for both. Its unfortunate we cannot find any, this is not the first time I have asked for this but nothing has really been presented.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by ckimmel

It would be great if a reputable comparo would be done treating the 2 vehicles as if they are what they are, different cars.

I suppose there is no money in it like there is in comparing between manufacturers, but as we have found AGAIN, there certainly is interest.

+1

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by 300hp

.......... however at least you can acknowledge we need the side by side comparison of track times for both. Its unfortunate we cannot find any, this is not the first time I have asked for this but nothing has really been presented.

True

One thing for sure about the RWD though........................it is 100x more fun *FACT*

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by 300hp

Awd despite its added weight is proven to be faster than rwd at least in a straight line but there are no hard facts to prove rwd is faster on tracks.

You can hold your breathe for some magazine test or hold out for some proven facts all you want.

Physics and numbers do not lie. This is not something that can only be proven by BMW, plenty of cars are offered in awd and RWD and the physics and numbers are clear.

Fact 1, same drivetrains but one with awd, the awd car will put less power down to the wheels due to higher paracydic losses. So your 300hp is 255wp but the RWD is more like 270whp.

Fact 2, the awd car carries more weight. That weight combined with fact 1 worsens the power to rate ratio even worse. In some cases the weight can worsen the balance of the car, or make it better, It depends. That weight also makes things like the brakes and tires work harder.

Those two facts are not opinions. You can grasp at whatever joke claim BMW makes To 0-60 on its website to make you feel better but it does not make the awd car truly faster. Fast and quick are two different things.

Awd will have a 0-15mph advantage, but after that the more power to the ground, the better power to weight of rwd takes over, that is why the RWD car will have a higher trap speed, often lower 1/4 mile et and better top gear acceleration.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

You can hold your breathe for some magazine test or hold out for some proven facts all you want.

Physics and numbers do not lie. This is not something that can only be proven by BMW, plenty of cars are offered in awd and RWD and the physics and numbers are clear.

Fact 1, same drivetrains but one with awd, the wad car will put less power down to the wheels due to higher paracydic losses. So your 300hp I 255wp but the RWD is more like 270whp.

Fact 2, the awd car carries more weight. That weight combined with fact 1 worsens the power to rate ratio even worse. In some cases the weight can worse then balance of the car, or make it better, It depends. That weight also makes things like the brakes work harder.

Those two facts are not opinions. You can grasp at whatever joke claim BMW makes To 0-60 on its website to make you feel better but it does not make the awd car truly faster. Fast and quick are two different things.

Awd will have a 0-15mph advantage, but after that the more power to the ground, the better power to weight of rwd takes over, that is why the RWD car will have a higher trap speed, often lower 1/4 mile et and better top gear acceleration.

I am not arguing with this, not at all. I simply put forward what the manufacturer said.

What we all want to see is the 2 racing on the track and let's tally the result, nothing wrong with that. Take out the period from your quote of my statement, it's misleading.

[walile]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

xDrive wins the 0-15mph drags...absolutely no doubt.......the RWD just spins it's wheels.

....but.............roll ons from 10mph and the RWD will not lose. Not saying there will be a big difference but the xDrive is heavier and has more drag so will struggle.

On track the xDrive will suffer from more under steer (unavoidable consequence of extra drag on front wheels), it is heavier, so on the brakes earlier, lower apex speed (weight again and under steer), more grip out the corners, but come on we are talking 300hp here, hardly a tyre burner. I'd be faster in the RWD than I would in xDrive

RWD vs AWD is almost like a religion sometimes, so debating them becomes almost pointless. But the truth is out there somewhere.

Conventional AWD setup often leads to understeer. However with modern computer controlled center diff, this is no longer the case. The latest xDrive proactively shifts power distribution to the rear during cornering. So, the xDrive is a far cry from the old Audi Torsen setup.

The xDrive might be a little heavier, but it can also start accelerating out of a corner sooner. This is especially true when the RWD F30 is without a mechanical LSD. When it rains, it's game over on the circuit for the RWD.

I take everything that Top Gear says with a grind of salt, but here is a comparison between the AWD and RWD Porsche 911. With its rear engine setup, it's known to have superb traction in even RWD configuration, but still the AWD is faster, however slightly so. If their time is to be believed that is.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by walile

RWD vs AWD is almost like a religion sometimes, so debating them becomes almost pointless. But the truth is out there somewhere.

Conventional AWD setup often leads to understeer. However with modern computer controlled center diff, this is no longer the case. The latest xDrive proactively shifts power distribution to the rear during cornering. So, the xDrive is a far cry from the old Audi Torsen setup.

The xDrive might be a little heavier, but it can also start accelerating out of a corner sooner. This is especially true when the RWD F30 is without a mechanical LSD. When it rains, it's game over on the circuit for the RWD.

I take everything that Top Gear says with a grind of salt, but here is a comparison between the AWD and RWD Porsche 911. With its rear engine setup, it's known to have superb traction in even RWD configuration, but still the AWD is faster, however slightly so. If their time is to be believed that is.

This is exactly why only the 2 cars racing together will settle this. I respect the people opining here based on the theory behind weight and dynos. Unfortunately the real world does not keep one set of variables constant (as in a theory) while other variables are allowed to shift. Its a complex mix of variables in the real world that only the results of a race between the two can end this argument. I said it before, without this, everything else is a pissing contest.