[zofinger]

Wonder if Boris will put a revised deal before Parliament who'll vote against it and vote against no deal. We'll then finally get the GE with the conservatives the only ones able to say they've tried for a deal, tried for no deal and the opposition parties are preventing any of it. It'll mean conservatives will pick up most of the Brexit Party votes, as well as most leavers and some who just want it done either way!

[Bryans69]

Originally Posted by zofinger

Wonder if Boris will put a revised deal before Parliament who'll vote against it and vote against no deal. We'll then finally get the GE with the conservatives the only ones able to say they've tried for a deal, tried for no deal and the opposition parties are preventing any of it. It'll mean conservatives will pick up most of the Brexit Party votes, as well as most leavers and some who just want it done either way!

Except he doesn't have a revised deal, and by all accounts isn't really trying to get one. A lot of leavers are labour voters who would never vote Tory, so I think he (and anyone else) will struggle to get a majority

[GBR1]

Originally Posted by Bryans69

Except he doesn't have a revised deal, and by all accounts isn't really trying to get one. A lot of leavers are labour voters who would never vote Tory, so I think he (and anyone else) will struggle to get a majority

Exactly, a GE will let Farage and co in, ultimately diluting existing parties with Brexit Party and Lib Dem’s taking labour/conservative seats however still giving a similar make up of leave/remain mp’s left to rule, it will be a waist of time..

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by JNW1

For god's sake no! All another referendum will do is show how divided the country still is and probably deepen those divisions even further; moreover, it would no doubt take months to organise (so the uncertainly continues) and in the meantime we don't have a government that's able to govern (and that's simply not sustainable for months IMO).

Therefore, personally I think we need a GE - and soon - to try to sort out the immediate impasse in Parliament and to me that could also go long way to helping to sort Brexit as well if the different political parties make it clear where they stand in their respective manifestos (which I think they will). I'm not at all keen on another referendum but if we are to have one a GE needs to come first in my view.

So you want a GE, which will be almost solely about Brexit, as you already said. But no to a vote on Brexit alone. And no to a subsequent GE that could then be fought on clear policies. Hmmm.

Why a GE can be organised in weeks, but a simple referendum takes months, I don't know. Have heard that before though.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

I don't really understand. Your last post said that in these times a General Election would be based pretty much on Brexit anyway. If that's the case, surely a referendum to decide the outcome of Brexit is more appropriate than having a general election based on a single subject?

The current government has lost its majority, isn't able to govern and in my view we need to try to resolve that situation and quickly; potentially an early GE might do that whereas waiting on a referendum result in (probably) several months time won't.

I accept issues other than Brexit will inevitably play a part in a GE campaign but Brexit will be the main focus and hence in my view the GE outcome would provide a pretty strong barometer for whether there's support for a no deal Brexit or indeed any form of Brexit at all. If, for example, the Parliamentary numbers post an election allowed a party (or parties) that had campaigned on Remain to form a government that would give a strong message that Brexit wasn't wanted in my view. If the new government then decided to test or confirm that in a referendum before revoking A50 then so be it but in the meantime they'd be able to get on with the day to day business of running the country, something the current government clearly can't do.

I'm not sure exactly how long a referendum would take to organise but let's be honest, there'd probably be an extensive debate over what options should be on the ballot paper before anything moved forward! That being the case I suspect it could be months not weeks and personally I don't think we can have a government held in paralysis for that long. Ok, a GE could still produce a hung Parliament with nobody able to form a government but we'd know that quite quickly and could react accordingly; however, doing nothing while we wait for a referendum in (probably) the new year isn't viable in my view and on the current Parliamentary numbers we'd still need an election then in any case.

And of course holding a further referendum without having first implemented the result of the previous one would open its own can of worms....

[GBR1]

All this proves is we can’t even agree on the best way of resolving the impasse within parliament, let alone end game!

[zofinger]

I dont think there can be any doubt if we dont have a government who can make decisions (whether you think good or bad decisions) then that needs to be resolved first and foremost. We can't have a Parliament running the country (i.e. no executive) - nothing would ever get done.

[JD6]

Originally Posted by zofinger

I dont think there can be any doubt if we dont have a government who can make decisions (whether you think good or bad decisions) then that needs to be resolved first and foremost. We can't have a Parliament running the country (i.e. no executive) - nothing would ever get done.

We have had an executive for the last 3 years and we have been in a state of paralysis, so neutralising that executive won't make much of a difference. It isn't clear whether Parliament is sufficiently motivated by a common aim to form its own multi-party executive. If it can, that looks like the best route out of the current situation - it can either agree a compromise Brexit deal, call a referendum or revoke Article 50. Once that has happened, it should call a general election.

[zofinger]

Originally Posted by JD6

We have had an executive for the last 3 years and we have been in a state of paralysis, so neutralising that executive won't make much of a difference. It isn't clear whether Parliament is sufficiently motivated by a common aim to form its own multi-party executive. If it can, that looks like the best route out of the current situation - it can either agree a compromise Brexit deal, call a referendum or revoke Article 50. Once that has happened, it should call a general election.

Yep - a GE or vote of no confidence. Either route is the constitutional norm but the exec. can't do it. That cannot be right.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by JD6

We have had an executive for the last 3 years and we have been in a state of paralysis, so neutralising that executive won't make much of a difference. It isn't clear whether Parliament is sufficiently motivated by a common aim to form its own multi-party executive. If it can, that looks like the best route out of the current situation - it can either agree a compromise Brexit deal, call a referendum or revoke Article 50. Once that has happened, it should call a general election.

There's been a state of paralysis on Brexit for the last 3 years but not on everything else. Until recently the Conservatives - admittedly with the support of the DUP since the 2017 GE - had a working majority but that's no longer the case and, thanks in no small part to the way Boris Johnson's approached things since becoming PM, it's clear there's little or no trust in the current administration. That's fundamentally different from the situation that existed under David Cameron - and then more recently Theresa May - and IMO the only sensible first step is to try to address that through a GE.

At the moment I'd argue there's no mandate for revoking A50 - or even holding another referendum - but a victory for pro-Remain parties in a GE could well provide that. As for agreeing a compromise deal with the EU, in my view there's little or no chance of that happening while the current political situation in the UK exists; with no deal taken off the table the EU has no incentive to offer anything and will probably just sit on its hands and see what develops here. A pro-Remain victory at a GE followed by revoking A50 would be job done for them without even having to lift a finger....

[JD6]

Originally Posted by JNW1

There's been a state of paralysis on Brexit for the last 3 years but not on everything else. Until recently the Conservatives - admittedly with the support of the DUP since the 2017 GE - had a working majority but that's no longer the case and, thanks in no small part to the way Boris Johnson's approached things since becoming PM, it's clear there's little or no trust in the current administration. That's fundamentally different from the situation that existed under David Cameron - and then more recently Theresa May - and IMO the only sensible first step is to try to address that through a GE.

At the moment I'd argue there's no mandate for revoking A50 - or even holding another referendum - but a victory for pro-Remain parties in a GE could well provide that. As for agreeing a compromise deal with the EU, in my view there's little or no chance of that happening while the current political situation in the UK exists; with no deal taken off the table the EU has no incentive to offer anything and will probably just sit on its hands and see what develops here. A pro-Remain victory at a GE followed by revoking A50 would be job done for them without even having to lift a finger....

While there has been a small working majority, my limited dealings with government (specifically BEIS) since 2016 suggests virtually all bandwidth is taken by Brexit. Clueless ministers without any grasp of policy come and go. Civil servants are seconded to other departments on Brexit related duties, so nothing actually happens. Since 2016, there has been no effective decision making, or any progress at all in the area I have some involvement with.

I agree that just revoking Article 50 without a referendum or GE would be a bit of a stretch. I don't see any issue with holding a confirmatory referendum though. Leavers were promised the moon on a stick, and the deal on the table doesn't look a lot like that, so it seems reasonable to ask if they actually want this. Even Jacob Rees Mogg once suggested that a confirmatory referendum could be a good idea...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3rX4nJ0snc

[Wills2]

There was some nutter no dealer on LBC today saying that Yellow hammer is project fear mk2 and if you look on google street view the French have built massive standings for the trucks which proves it's all a lie.

NO the massive new truck parks PROVE that there will be huge delays numb nuts.....

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Wills2

There was some nutter no dealer on LBC today saying that Yellow hammer is project fear mk2 and if you look on google street view the French have built massive standings for the trucks which proves it's all a lie.

NO the massive new truck parks PROVE that there will be huge delays numb nuts.....

Christ, they are thick.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Christ, they are thick.

The issue is they can't admit the truth so they end up thrashing around and looking foolish.

It's crazy it's like cult.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by JD6

While there has been a small working majority, my limited dealings with government (specifically BEIS) since 2016 suggests virtually all bandwidth is taken by Brexit. Clueless ministers without any grasp of policy come and go. Civil servants are seconded to other departments on Brexit related duties, so nothing actually happens. Since 2016, there has been no effective decision making, or any progress at all in the area I have some involvement with.

I'm sure the attention on Brexit has had an adverse impact on other areas but nevertheless I'd argue we're now in a different situation from what we were when David Cameron or Theresa May were PM. The current government are simply unable to govern and that wasn't the case until the last few weeks; it's also not a sustainable situation and holding a referendum in a few months time isn't a viable solution IMO.

Originally Posted by JD6

I agree that just revoking Article 50 without a referendum or GE would be a bit of a stretch. I don't see any issue with holding a confirmatory referendum though.

As above, the immediate issue for me is it won't do anything to solve the current paralysis in Parliament. Ordinarily a government in the situation in which the current one finds itself would be ushered very quickly towards a GE and that should happen here IMO. A further referendum can, if necessary, come later and depending on the result a GE may actually provide a clear mandate for holding one. That said, if other parties were to adopt the more honest position now being suggested by the Lib Dems (i.e. move straight to revoking A50) the further disruption and cost of another referendum may not be necessary.....

[Isow]

I don’t think he will resign, he’ll have to be pushed

[Tengocity]

Interesting that even Farage is distancing himself from Johnson and the proroguing decision, which suggests that he sees or believes that he's a lame duck now, rather than taking a view that the judiciary are thwarting Brexit.

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

Interesting that even Farage is distancing himself from Johnson and the proroguing decision, which suggests that he sees or believes that he's a lame duck now, rather than taking a view that the judiciary are thwarting Brexit.

Brexit party chairman even saying brexit should be delayed now... Clearly this has been a big tiit in everybody's political thinking... Brexit party possibly thinking of angry defecting conservative voters blaming BoJo...

Richard Tice, chairman of the Brexit Party, tells the BBC that today's decision is "seismic, historic" but MPs must think about what happens next.

"As soon as Parliament is recalled tomorrow, Boris Johnson is probably going to have to offer his resignation," he says.

"There may well be a vote of no confidence."

He says the public must now realise that "we're not leaving the EU on 31 October".

"There will have to be an extension. When that penny drops, people are going to be increasingly angry across the country," he says.

Mr Tice says there will probably have to be an election in the first half of November.

"What does it say about the so-called master strategist Dominic Cummings? I trust he will be offering his resignation today."

[225]

No.10 saying he will not resign. I'm not sure there will be a vote of no confidence as I think Boris could then use that to say hes still standing up for the people vs parliament.

Who knows though and what with Labour showing the public how useless they are and Libdems going full anti brexit it may actually work out ok for Bojo.

[DB118D]

And where are Labour?

Floundering under Commie Corbyn, and unable to run a conference vote properly, let alone a General Election campaign or the country.

I saw a tweet earlier that said the Lib Dems should be declaring the cost of the Labour Conference against their election spending

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by 225

No.10 saying he will not resign. I'm not sure there will be a vote of no confidence as I think Boris could then use that to say hes still standing up for the people vs parliament.

Who knows though and what with Labour showing the public how useless they are and Libdems going full anti brexit it may actually work out ok for Bojo.

I see it the same way. BJ doesn't strike me as a quitter and, as has been discussed across the various threads on the Forum, Labour maybe has more to lose than the Conservatives in both a no-confidence vote and a GE.

The public aren't stupid. They realise that BJ was trying to break the deadlock and that Labour (and Brexit opposition across the Parties) were trying to use every challenge possible to thwart that progress and ultimately overturn the Brexit vote.

It's going to be an interesting few weeks. Bring on the GE.

[zofinger]

Are we closer to the Government calling a vote of no confidence in itself/resigning? If they can't govern the business in the HOC nor trigger a GE, what else can they do.