Stock B58 - misfire, loose spark plugs, fuel in plug tubes

GENAU · 08-31-2021, 06:24 AM

I recently started my car and started driving down my driveway. High pitched noise like a kettle, smoke following me down the driveway. I called and took it to the dealership, believing it was the crank case valve -- easy enough

Dealership gets back to me:

Quote:

Tech found a couple of misfire faults, so he inspected the spark plugs, ignition coils, and fuel injectors. I was curious if you’ve recently had the spark plugs replaced? I ask, because none of the spark plugs were tightened to spec, all seemed to be loose compared to where they should be. He also found fuel in the spark plug tubes of cylinder 1 and cylinder 6. Because of this, he’s recommending 6 new spark plugs and 2 injectors. If the spark plugs had just been done, then he’d recommend just doing the 2 that were fuel soaked. To replace all 6 spark plugs, you’d be looking at $320 parts/tax/labor and to do the 2 injectors, you’d be looking at $1,625 parts/tax/labor. Tech also looked at the crank case vent as well, said there were no signs of an issue there

Any idea what could have caused all of this on a bone stock engine? As far as I know the plugs are original. The car was purchased out of a lease and all work done at dealerships previously. Hard to wrap my head around with 55k miles.

BMWILUVU · 08-31-2021, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GENAU

I recently started my car and started driving down my driveway. High pitched noise like a kettle, smoke following me down the driveway. I called and took it to the dealership, believing it was the crank case valve -- easy enough

Dealership gets back to me:

Any idea what could have caused all of this on a bone stock engine? As far as I know the plugs are original. The car was purchased out of a lease and all work done at dealerships previously. Hard to wrap my head around with 55k miles.

What color was the smoke and what were the codes being thrown? The car could have been tuned, replaced plugs and injectors, and the plugs 1 and 6 blown out. The fuel in the tube though point to injector seals or fuel rail contact leaking which could be from a previous improper injector install. Post the dealership work order as it "should" have more details.

GENAU · 08-31-2021, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMWILUVU

What color was the smoke and what were the codes being thrown? The car could have been tuned, replaced plugs and injectors, and the plugs 1 and 6 blown out. The fuel in the tube though point to injector seals or fuel rail contact leaking which could be from a previous improper injector install. Post the dealership work order as it "should" have more details.

The previous owner replacing and fucking up the injectors resulting in fuel around the spark plug is the most reasonable answer ive gotten so far. However; I still can't relate it to the loud high pitched sound and smoke. I suppose the loose spark plugs could be the misfire and white smoke, but the sound screams (no pun intended) crankcase valve.

kern417 · 08-31-2021, 10:01 AM

can't explain loose spark plugs but injector failures happen from time to time.

GENAU · 08-31-2021, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kern417

can't explain loose spark plugs but injector failures happen from time to time.

After speaking with the service guy over the phone. He believes the fuel went past the spark plug and above it. The looseness was only 22NM compared to 23-24. That sounds like normal wear looseness to me. Hard to believe fuel would have gotten past. Im thinking the injectors went sour and it's injecting too much or too little; too late or too soon.

weehe126 · 08-31-2021, 12:09 PM

On the N55 the spark plugs would get loose by themselves. Haven't heard that happen to a B58. And loose means you can turn it by hand with a socket on an extension. 22NM doesn't sound loose to me. Even with loose plugs on a N55 fuel would not blow up past the spark plugs. You have to realize that the engine is hot. How would fuel in that area not evaporate even with the coil boot on. A screeching and smoke could also be a blown turbo if not the PCV.

GENAU · 08-31-2021, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weehe126

On the N55 the spark plugs would get loose by themselves. Haven't heard that happen to a B58. And loose means you can turn it by hand with a socket on an extension. 22NM doesn't sound loose to me. Even with loose plugs on a N55 fuel would not blow up past the spark plugs. You have to realize that the engine is hot. How would fuel in that area not evaporate even with the coil boot on. A screeching and smoke could also be a blown turbo if not the PCV.

I think the turbo would have resulted in a lot more codes or obvious failures than what I have. More importantly they wouldn't have been able to drive the car comfortably from lot to bay without noticing anything.

You raise a good point about the fuel evaporating though. I'm curious what they saw or how they identified the fuel. I'm feeling like this is a solution in need of a problem and expensive one at that. The findings of a failed injector leaving fuel that somehow makes it past the spark plug and never evaporates or burns in the process is a bit much to buy into.

BMWILUVU · 08-31-2021, 12:57 PM

22Nm is not a blown out plug. Fuel in the well could be fuel from a hydrolocked cylinder getting past the injector seals or better chances the injector was not properly seated to the fuel rail. Logs should tell you where your fuel rail pressure is going. How much fuel was in the well. Fuel in the engine is not safe: Engine fire. What color was the smoke and was the smoke from the exhaust or engine hood?

GENAU · 08-31-2021, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMWILUVU

22Nm is not a blown out plug. Fuel in the well could be fuel from a hydrolocked cylinder getting past the injector seals or better chances the injector was not properly seated to the fuel rail. Logs should tell you where your fuel rail pressure is going. How much fuel was in the well. Fuel in the engine is not safe: Engine fire. What color was the smoke and was the smoke from the exhaust or engine hood?

It was white smoke from the exhaust. Nothing under the hood was suggestion burning at all when I stopped the car.

I do not know exactly how much fuel was in the well, but I will ask the shop to be more specific when they call back

Would a hydrolocked cylinder not be more catastrophic? Something that would have been more noticeable over the last 5-10k miles?

BMWILUVU · 08-31-2021, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GENAU

It was white smoke from the exhaust. Nothing under the hood was suggestion burning at all when I stopped the car.

I do not know exactly how much fuel was in the well, but I will ask the shop to be more specific when they call back

Would a hydrolocked cylinder not be more catastrophic? Something that would have been more noticeable over the last 5-10k miles?

Yes it could bend the rods. Chances are you lost ignition and couple of injectors were able to be shutdown before that happened.

dmanb2b · 08-31-2021, 01:54 PM

I am not a fan of dealers for this stuff, unless you are under warranty. Find a good local BMW indy shop. If you are near Albany, NY I can recommend a very good BMW-only shop.

GENAU · 08-31-2021, 03:14 PM

Update: cyl 1 and 6 misfired. Those two have fuel residue in the spark plug passage. The understanding is that fuel from the injector, likely where it is seated in the fuel rail, came down into that passage(?)

Labor rate: $142.50/hr
Injectors: $410/ea

Yikes.

weehe126 · 09-01-2021, 08:00 AM

As said before an injector going bad is not uncommon. But find an indy to do the work, not the dealer. It's more likely you have a leaking valve cover gasket letting oil in the area than fuel "residue". A new injector from ECS costs $280, not $410. Should take less than an hour to swap in 2 new injectors.

vektorprime · 09-01-2021, 08:30 AM

Personally, I would just do the spark plugs my self. Getting 5/6 of them is easy, 6th one requires taking off a bunch of screws; but, still relatively easy. You can also see if you can provide the parts and they'll do the labor. I haven't done the fuel injectors but that doesn't seem too difficult either if you just have the correct wrenches and bits/sockets.

Think about the bright side, it's nice to hear the issue is not as bad as major engine work that can cost 3-4k

BMWILUVU · 09-01-2021, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weehe126

As said before an injector going bad is not uncommon. But find an indy to do the work, not the dealer. It's more likely you have a leaking valve cover gasket letting oil in the area than fuel "residue". A new injector from ECS costs $280, not $410. Should take less than an hour to swap in 2 new injectors.

If they did it properly it would take much more than an hour. #1 and #6 means removing both halves of the fuel rail. If you leave #2-5 injectors in, you could save time but when reattaching the fuel rail, those injectors need to be properly spaced and its not possible when left in. I think ISTA would recommend removing and reinstalling #1-6 and replacing just #1 and #6. Also reinstalling injectors requires replacing the injector seal which is time consuming. Also for the B58 there are two versions at least of injectors and its not recommended to mix and match. Its either going to be a big-ish job and if its not they are cutting corners.

GENAU · 09-02-2021, 07:50 AM

Hearing back form the shop, "... spoke with the shop foreman and he printed for me the diagram of the engine cover, which the crankcase vent valve is part of. I've circled it in the attachment to this e-mail, but it's not replaceable, it's part of the cover itself. In regards to the misfire, the counter maxed out, so it didn't give us a specific number of misfires, but yes, it's been consistent."

Sounds like the two injectors are fried but the dealer is really screwing me with costs. My concern is that if I take it elsewhere at this point, they're going to pin me with some hundred dollar fee for the diagnosis making it pointless to go somewhere else in the first place. Saying the valve is irreplacible aslo concerns me because as far as I can tell thats simply incorrect.

weehe126 · 09-02-2021, 12:24 PM

They go by what BMW says and that is the VC is not serviceable. Doesn't mean some aftermarket company didn't made it serviceable. The dealership will probably charge $150 for the service. That's less than the overage they are charging on one injector. You would probably still be better off to take it to an indy.

GENAU · 09-02-2021, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weehe126

They go by what BMW says and that is the VC is not serviceable. Doesn't mean some aftermarket company didn't made it serviceable. The dealership will probably charge $150 for the service. That's less than the overage they are charging on one injector. You would probably still be better off to take it to an indy.

I totally agree with you. The only thing making me hesitant of the indy shop at the moment is that I'm on day 2 of waiting for a callback on scheduling and I know they have at minimum a two week backlog of jobs. The dealership can get my car done next week. If I can bring the quote from the indy or more importantly the quote from the other bmw dealership and have the one I'm at match that or at least be closer, I get the best of both worlds imo.

Anyone have a good source for that valve/diaphragm?

G.Newt · 09-02-2021, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GENAU

I totally agree with you. The only thing making me hesitant of the indy shop at the moment is that I'm on day 2 of waiting for a callback on scheduling and I know they have at minimum a two week backlog of jobs. The dealership can get my car done next week. If I can bring the quote from the indy or more importantly the quote from the other bmw dealership and have the one I'm at match that or at least be closer, I get the best of both worlds imo.

Anyone have a good source for that valve/diaphragm?

They're all over eBay. I got one with a new cap, diaphragm, spring, and plastic insert for $30-$40.

GENAU · 09-06-2021, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.Newt

They're all over eBay. I got one with a new cap, diaphragm, spring, and plastic insert for $30-$40.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/25499160591....c101113.m2108

Such as this? I'm sure you can get my hesitance with a shitload of a listings for a fairly ambiguous rubber bit sold from loads of eastern block countries. A rubber bit whos failure could have detrimental results to my very expensive engine....

Odd that many don't come with the cover or spring. Shame BMW or a trusted vendor doesn't sell it.

steveindabmer · 09-15-2021, 07:49 AM

Is replacing this non-serviceable PCV valve/cap something i should do now before i have issues? Is it s a faulty design by bmw?

BMWILUVU · 09-15-2021, 08:19 AM

The eBay PCV diaphragm and cap are fine. Otherwise you need a new valve cover which I think is over a thousand for just the part alone. The dealership will charge you a diagnostic but they may charge one anyway if you go ahead with the work. I would ask them to present me with the bill if I went with the dealership and what a bill looks like if I take it for a second opinion. Then I would haggle with the dealership to get the cost down on the injector replacement. The thing is, the issue may not be with the injectors but its safer for the dealership to replace them (bad injectors can possibly destroy your engine) since they guarantee their work so they will always go the safe route and of course injector replacement is alot of money. If they will not go lower, I would ask around and see if indys can do it for less. Keep in mind most indys source from dealership parts departments and not ECS. They do get a slight discount but it may not be as low as ECS sale prices and they tend to want to keep that discount if you know what I mean.
Steve, you don't need to replace the PCV until it shows issues and is mostly fine for people who don't push higher than stock boost.

08-31-2021, 12:57 PM	#8
BMWILUVU Lieutenant Colonel 809 Rep 1,597 Posts Drives: 340ix Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: The Boibs iTrader: (0)	22Nm is not a blown out plug. Fuel in the well could be fuel from a hydrolocked cylinder getting past the injector seals or better chances the injector was not properly seated to the fuel rail. Logs should tell you where your fuel rail pressure is going. How much fuel was in the well. Fuel in the engine is not safe: Engine fire. What color was the smoke and was the smoke from the exhaust or engine hood?
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08-31-2021, 01:54 PM	#11
dmanb2b Banned 2125 Rep 3,368 Posts Drives: G07, F97, F30, E90, E46, E30 Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: NY iTrader: (5)	I am not a fan of dealers for this stuff, unless you are under warranty. Find a good local BMW indy shop. If you are near Albany, NY I can recommend a very good BMW-only shop.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

08-31-2021, 03:14 PM	#12
GENAU Private 16 Rep 95 Posts Drives: 2018 BMW 440i GC Join Date: May 2021 Location: New England iTrader: (0)	Update: cyl 1 and 6 misfired. Those two have fuel residue in the spark plug passage. The understanding is that fuel from the injector, likely where it is seated in the fuel rail, came down into that passage(?) Labor rate: $142.50/hr Injectors: $410/ea Yikes.
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09-01-2021, 08:00 AM	#13
weehe126 Brigadier General 1161 Rep 3,189 Posts Drives: 2017 340i Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: San Antonio iTrader: (2)	As said before an injector going bad is not uncommon. But find an indy to do the work, not the dealer. It's more likely you have a leaking valve cover gasket letting oil in the area than fuel "residue". A new injector from ECS costs $280, not $410. Should take less than an hour to swap in 2 new injectors.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

09-01-2021, 08:30 AM	#14
vektorprime Private First Class 43 Rep 148 Posts Drives: 440xi Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: United States iTrader: (0)	Personally, I would just do the spark plugs my self. Getting 5/6 of them is easy, 6th one requires taking off a bunch of screws; but, still relatively easy. You can also see if you can provide the parts and they'll do the labor. I haven't done the fuel injectors but that doesn't seem too difficult either if you just have the correct wrenches and bits/sockets. Think about the bright side, it's nice to hear the issue is not as bad as major engine work that can cost 3-4k
	Appreciate 0 Quote

08-31-2021, 12:09 PM	#6
weehe126 Brigadier General 1161 Rep 3,189 Posts Drives: 2017 340i Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: San Antonio iTrader: (2)	On the N55 the spark plugs would get loose by themselves. Haven't heard that happen to a B58. And loose means you can turn it by hand with a socket on an extension. 22NM doesn't sound loose to me. Even with loose plugs on a N55 fuel would not blow up past the spark plugs. You have to realize that the engine is hot. How would fuel in that area not evaporate even with the coil boot on. A screeching and smoke could also be a blown turbo if not the PCV.
	Appreciate 1 Wires1645.50 Quote

09-02-2021, 07:50 AM	#16
GENAU Private 16 Rep 95 Posts Drives: 2018 BMW 440i GC Join Date: May 2021 Location: New England iTrader: (0)	Hearing back form the shop, "... spoke with the shop foreman and he printed for me the diagram of the engine cover, which the crankcase vent valve is part of. I've circled it in the attachment to this e-mail, but it's not replaceable, it's part of the cover itself. In regards to the misfire, the counter maxed out, so it didn't give us a specific number of misfires, but yes, it's been consistent." Sounds like the two injectors are fried but the dealer is really screwing me with costs. My concern is that if I take it elsewhere at this point, they're going to pin me with some hundred dollar fee for the diagnosis making it pointless to go somewhere else in the first place. Saying the valve is irreplacible aslo concerns me because as far as I can tell thats simply incorrect.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

09-02-2021, 12:24 PM	#17
weehe126 Brigadier General 1161 Rep 3,189 Posts Drives: 2017 340i Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: San Antonio iTrader: (2)	They go by what BMW says and that is the VC is not serviceable. Doesn't mean some aftermarket company didn't made it serviceable. The dealership will probably charge $150 for the service. That's less than the overage they are charging on one injector. You would probably still be better off to take it to an indy.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

09-15-2021, 07:49 AM	#21
steveindabmer Private First Class 48 Rep 112 Posts Drives: 2019 440i Xdrive M-Sport Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Allentown iTrader: (0)	Is replacing this non-serviceable PCV valve/cap something i should do now before i have issues? Is it s a faulty design by bmw?
	Appreciate 0 Quote

09-15-2021, 08:19 AM	#22
BMWILUVU Lieutenant Colonel 809 Rep 1,597 Posts Drives: 340ix Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: The Boibs iTrader: (0)	The eBay PCV diaphragm and cap are fine. Otherwise you need a new valve cover which I think is over a thousand for just the part alone. The dealership will charge you a diagnostic but they may charge one anyway if you go ahead with the work. I would ask them to present me with the bill if I went with the dealership and what a bill looks like if I take it for a second opinion. Then I would haggle with the dealership to get the cost down on the injector replacement. The thing is, the issue may not be with the injectors but its safer for the dealership to replace them (bad injectors can possibly destroy your engine) since they guarantee their work so they will always go the safe route and of course injector replacement is alot of money. If they will not go lower, I would ask around and see if indys can do it for less. Keep in mind most indys source from dealership parts departments and not ECS. They do get a slight discount but it may not be as low as ECS sale prices and they tend to want to keep that discount if you know what I mean. Steve, you don't need to replace the PCV until it shows issues and is mostly fine for people who don't push higher than stock boost.
	Appreciate 1 steveindabmer47.50 Quote