[Wires]

Originally Posted by CrimsonMoonLight72

But didn’t most people say v 2.2 stage 2 93 seems to have noticeable LESS low end response compared to v 2.1 stage 2 93 ? And the gains for v 2.2 were mid to top end? And v 2.1 was all about that low end trq spike? Idk maybe each car responds slightly different to same map? I’m glad at least you tested back to back.....

From other people's reactions, they said the bottom mid was a lot stronger (which is what I'm seeing). I am running 91 octane, so not sure if that is the difference.

Maybe the low end boost spike ends up with a power cut? PTF did mention they increased the boost level across the band. All I can say is I thought the car was a demon before, but it's just crazy now. It was getting more to the acceleration feeling my boss's Telsa P100D felt like!

What I can say is with that extra low end grunt, I can see how people could get themselves into precarious situations if you kept hard on the throttle when the nannies started to kick in. If you start to let up, the TC brings everything into check and all becomes well again.

[imperfectluck]

Not trying to table the discussion but would be interesting to hear what proTUNING Freaks response is regarding the changes and feedback of others.

[CrimsonMoonLight72]

Originally Posted by Wires

From other people's reactions, they said the bottom mid was a lot stronger (which is what I'm seeing). I am running 91 octane, so not sure if that is the difference.

Maybe the low end boost spike ends up with a power cut? PTF did mention they increased the boost level across the band. All I can say is I thought the car was a demon before, but it's just crazy now. It was getting more to the acceleration feeling my boss's Telsa P100D felt like!

What I can say is with that extra low end grunt, I can see how people could get themselves into precarious situations if you kept hard on the throttle when the nannies started to kick in. If you start to let up, the TC brings everything into check and all becomes well again.

But it’s amazing that EVEN with Xdrive cars are spinning out!?!? I mean I can see rwd but with xdrive? Idk man I’m not gonna get into this huge back and forth and arguing and all that but I recall for example a guy a few years back who had an 06 STI and he was running almost 600 to all 4 wheels and his awd on that STI kept the car in control. Now idk if on the Subaru the awd system is just miles ahead of xdrive but I remember that car and he never lost control. I honestly think that PTF did something that causes maybe revs to incrementally rise very quickly once slippage is sensed? Which is bizarre why someone would want that?

[Cobra358]

I think we should all always be ready for the car to loose traction and the rear end to step out, Just like if the brakes lock up or you are on snow/ice, need to pump the breaks, counter stere etc. These newer cars have ridiculous power now, great brakes and handle well. I remember when a 14 second car was fast, 15 mpg was great, poor brakes, no anti lock, more fish tailing, manual trans, car wouldn't turn and no traction control. The amenities now for safety reasons are great but they shouldn't be relied upon as much as they are by the driver, you have to be prepared for anything and not blame the car or the tune.

[CrimsonMoonLight72]

Originally Posted by Cobra358

I think we should all always be ready for the car to loose traction and the rear end to step out, Just like if the brakes lock up or you are on snow/ice, need to pump the breaks, counter stere etc. These newer cars have ridiculous power now, great brakes and handle well. I remember when a 14 second car was fast, 15 mpg was great, poor brakes, no anti lock, more fish tailing, manual trans, car wouldn't turn and no traction control. The amenities now for safety reasons are great but they shouldn't be relied upon as much as they are by the driver, you have to be prepared for anything and not blame the car or the tune.

Dude you need to do 2 things....
1.Read what people have been saying..and no not all of them are 17 and just started driving
2.Drive around for awhile with the previous gen maps. I have for years and I could always nail it in any situation and I NEVER lost control but it was still fast as could be and that was stage 1 93.

And apparently even with the new stage 1 93 people’s cars are breaking loose and spinning rpms up and up which exacerbate the loss of control.

Sorry but more than likely it has something to do with one of the many many parameters they set with the OTS maps. It’s just a matter of dialing in some other setting(s).

[Wires]

Originally Posted by CrimsonMoonLight72

Dude you need to do 2 things....
1.Read what people have been saying..and no not all of them are 17 and just started driving
2.Drive around for awhile with the previous gen maps. I have for years and I could always nail it in any situation and I NEVER lost control but it was still fast as could be and that was stage 1 93.

And apparently even with the new stage 1 93 people’s cars are breaking loose and spinning rpms up and up which exacerbate the loss of control.

Sorry but more than likely it has something to do with one of the many many parameters they set with the OTS maps. It’s just a matter of dialing in some other setting(s).

Not to be "that guy" but from my experience on the 2.2 map, you have to be really hard on the throttle on a corner to have the car break traction. You know, like a 17 year old would be.

As I mentioned before, I think the root cause is PFT fixed a bunch of stuff, the engine can now spool up insanely faster, which is effecting the OEM traction control PID loop (fancy engineering crap). I'd assume since they are doing the custom ROM stuff, they would be able to touch that as well, who knows. But that isn't an easy task to dial in. If it's too far the other way, everybody whines, complains and moans on how aggressive the TC now is. And how it "never did that on the 2.1 and prior maps." But I think it's more than just plugging a couple numbers in here and there. And maybe I'm wrong, and I am willing to eat crow, but I 100% agree with Cobra358's comments. If you just pin the gas on a cloverleaf, or doing a corner, you need to expect crap may go sideways.

I've got hard on the throttle with OEM tuning, and the car can come unglued. With this new map, it just is that much more aggressive that one needs to be aware of tire condition, road condition, temperatures, etc. Like I said, with great power comes great responsibility.

[Cobra358]

Originally Posted by CrimsonMoonLight72

Dude you need to do 2 things....
1.Read what people have been saying..and no not all of them are 17 and just started driving
2.Drive around for awhile with the previous gen maps. I have for years and I could always nail it in any situation and I NEVER lost control but it was still fast as could be and that was stage 1 93.

And apparently even with the new stage 1 93 people’s cars are breaking loose and spinning rpms up and up which exacerbate the loss of control.

Sorry but more than likely it has something to do with one of the many many parameters they set with the OTS maps. It’s just a matter of dialing in some other setting(s).

There might be something wrong with map, I'm not disputing that. This is the potential risk we all take when we add aftermarket tunes/suspension parts, tires, etc.... You might have a false sense of security, expecting the car to save you when you over step its limits right after suspension/engine changes. What bootmod3 does for these cars is nothing short of fantastic but it comes with some risks, just keep that in mind, all I am saying, always be prepared for the back end to step out at these power levels.

[CrimsonMoonLight72]

Originally Posted by Wires

Not to be "that guy" but from my experience on the 2.2 map, you have to be really hard on the throttle on a corner to have the car break traction. You know, like a 17 year old would be.

As I mentioned before, I think the root cause is PFT fixed a bunch of stuff, the engine can now spool up insanely faster, which is effecting the OEM traction control PID loop (fancy engineering crap). I'd assume since they are doing the custom ROM stuff, they would be able to touch that as well, who knows. But that isn't an easy task to dial in. If it's too far the other way, everybody whines, complains and moans on how aggressive the TC now is. And how it "never did that on the 2.1 and prior maps." But I think it's more than just plugging a couple numbers in here and there. And maybe I'm wrong, and I am willing to eat crow, but I 100% agree with Cobra358's comments. If you just pin the gas on a cloverleaf, or doing a corner, you need to expect crap may go sideways.

I've got hard on the throttle with OEM tuning, and the car can come unglued. With this new map, it just is that much more aggressive that one needs to be aware of tire condition, road condition, temperatures, etc. Like I said, with great power comes great responsibility.

Ok what you’re saying is not false...but I’m just saying do You think that so much more power and torque was added over previous gen maps, so much so , that onboard and native safety systems have through no control, become seriously compromised OR was that just simply programmed into final parameters? If it’s the latter than couldnt it be tweaked without compromising the power and torque increase? The descriptions of how the rpms increase sharply as TC is initially applied sounds a bit antiquated tbh....I just wonder if the tunes were actually road tested? And tested not only through one car but multiple cars. But then again who other than bmw knows the boundaries and limitations of TC? Does a tuner know?

[r44]

Originally Posted by lemonana

extra power my ass

You are not the only one familiar with your car/engine. TC been cut off is not a funny thing to debate on internet, it's a saftey issue

Exactly, what extra power?
I could get my wheels spinning at 2000rpm with about 50% throttle position.
Wires, how much power do I have at that moment?
50ftlb more torque? You really have no idea what you're talking about.
Please explain us what tables you modify to get that much difference with the same hardware?

[Wires]

Originally Posted by r44

Exactly, what extra power?
I could get my wheels spinning at 2000rpm with about 50% throttle position.
Wires, how much power do I have at that moment?
50ftlb more torque? You really have no idea what you're talking about.
Please explain us what tables you modify to get that much difference with the same hardware?

50 ft lb is more of a "that's what it feels like" I'm not saying that's what you are getting. And perhaps you are down low compared to the past map do to the fixes they did? They upped the boost across the entire band == more power. They fixed boost spikes down low under load (IE when you are taking off from idle). How much of that impacts extra DME intervention of over-boost retard, knock intervention, etc?

Have you tried loading in the 2.1 map, do a drive, and then load the 2.2 map and do the exact same things? There is a HUGE difference on the power it's delivering on my car.

As a FYI, your car is delivering power based on torque targets, not boost targets. At 50% throttle you will be getting VERY high torque. Turn on your sport gauges and you can see what the DME should be targeting. It's not 50% power at 50% throttle if that's what you are thinking.

I've had the opportunity to drive BM3 on the 2.0, 2.1 and 2.2 maps over the past couple years. When I initially bought the tune, my concern was if I had a brain fart, and nailed the gas, would the extra power have the car fully lose control. Here is what I've experienced over the map changes (340, AWD, 8AT 91 octane, comfort or sport mode). 50% of the year I'm on winter tires, and I live in a place I can get 4 freaking seasons on any given day.

v2.0 / stage 1: Off the line felt 100% stock, no difference in the traction control or power delivery. Somewhere around 2-3K rpm, there was a step jump in power, and then it just took off, but never impacted traction.

v2.1 / stage1: The fixed that step jump and the power came on smooth and boost gained rapidly. Even on wet pavement, I could get on the throttle hard, and no tire spin.

-- added a catted DP --

v2.1 / stage2: Same feel of power delivery as stage 1, just more power. The car would now spin tires off the line on wet pavement and I started thinking this game would start to be paid in tire wear.

v2.2 / stage2: Power comes on VERY hard at the bottom end. If you played with their anti-lag tune, it feels like that off the line. Now if I've hard on the throttle (50%+ / 2000 RPM+) it will spin tires unless it can find traction.

[Wires]

Originally Posted by imperfectluck

Not trying to table the discussion but would be interesting to hear what proTUNING Freaks response is regarding the changes and feedback of others.

Agreed. Has anyone actually reached out to ask them? Kind of feels like there is a car accident and everyone stands around doing the "someone should call 911", but nobody does because 'the other person' will take care of it.

Like I said, if it concerns people, open a ticket with them. It seems all here are assuming they patrol the forums looking for issues.

My only concern about the 2.2 map is I can see that my tire wear is going to increase. The nannies kick in under lighter load/RPM's which is what I want them to do.

[weehe126]

Power is being requested based on load, not torque, in relation to throttle input. If you have a linear throttle map like in comfort mode of TC fully off, 50% throttle will target 50% of the tunes max load target for that rpm. If you use the sport or sport+ settings throttle is not linear and 50% throttle (with your foot) is closer to 80% throttle requested.

[r44]

There's pretty good evidence in the other thread, logs and charts.
Revs jumping through the roof.
And PTF have acknowledged the issue, so you can stop now.

[CrimsonMoonLight72]

Originally Posted by r44

There's pretty good evidence in the other thread, logs and charts.
Revs jumping through the roof.
And PTF have acknowledged the issue, so you can stop now.

Didn’t someone just recently share that PTF not only acknowledged but is actively seeking a remedy to this?

[eluded]

Originally Posted by imperfectluck

Not trying to table the discussion but would be interesting to hear what proTUNING Freaks response is regarding the changes and feedback of others.

I'm stage one but I found it asked for half a pound more of boooooooooooodst and 3° less timing

[culpability]

For anyone in this thread looking for answers on the apparent TC issues, check out the thread I have created specifically on this topic. PTF has explicitly acknowledged the problem and is working to address it. As of this morning they provided me with a test map that as far as I am concerned 100% addresses the TC problem while retaining frankly terrifying amounts of torque. See full update here: https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...3&postcount=34

[Wires]

Originally Posted by culpability

For anyone in this thread looking for answers on the apparent TC issues, check out the thread I have created specifically on this topic. PTF has explicitly acknowledged the problem and is working to address it. As of this morning they provided me with a test map that as far as I am concerned 100% addresses the TC problem while retaining frankly terrifying amounts of torque. See full update here: https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...3&postcount=34

Nice! As long as that terrifying level of torque remains, all is well.

[335kc]

I have a 340i awd. I go WOT in lower gears , I've not experienced any wheel spin or lost traction. Only talking about straight line.