[Solidjake]

Anyone thought of swapping to a 335 engine instead? If the job is 3k isn't a 335 engine around 5k and not prone to this problem

[sspade]

Originally Posted by Linc0909

These engines go 12k between oil changes and that's with a factory filter. If you're doing it more often than that you're wasting your money and resources. Stop listening to grandpa or the 23 yo high school drop out at Jiffy Lube. If the dealer and manufacture that has to warranty your vehicle doesn't require it sooner why would you?

The issue is NOT the chain, it's the plastic guides which a lot of manufacturers use to keep engine noise down. If you research the TSB for the repair they replace the plastic guides with metal ones.

This is wrong on so many levels.

You need to do a little research before running your trap around here. Lot's of us waiting to call you out.

I wont even comment on your ignorant thoughts regarding oil changes.

But...

There is no such thing as OEM metal guides for the N20 motor.

Also- the only part number to change was actually the chain. Not the guides.

What an idiot.

[BettyFkinCrocker]

Originally Posted by sspade

This is wrong on so many levels.

You need to do a little research before running your trap around here. Lot's of us waiting to call you out.

I wont even comment on your ignorant thoughts regarding oil changes.

But...

There is no such thing as OEM metal guides for the N20 motor.

Also- the only part number to change was actually the chain. Not the guides.

What an idiot.

With the level of ignorance in his post, I'd imagine it's an intentional troll.

In case not and his ignorance is genuine...

A manufacturer recommended OCI is not proven safe/reliable simply because the manufacturer issues a warranty for a fraction of the cars life. In fact, BMW proves this by revising their recommended OCI after their engines begin to fail from sludge build up etc.

BMW is not very concerned with what happens after their warranty is up. Especially considering the majority of their sales is in leases.

I don't recall anyone here saying the chain is the sole culprit. However, I am pretty sure BMW did revise the oil pump chain (and possibly the timing chain as well IIRC) which were both suspected factors. But yes, the most notable issue overall is the plastic guides breaking and clogging the oil pick up. Lot's of variables at play.

Regarding the metal chain guide...I'd love to see a part number compatible with the n20. Feel free to enlighten us.

[rjd_F30]

Originally Posted by BettyFkinCrocker

With the level of ignorance in his post, I'd imagine it's an intentional troll.

In case not and his ignorance is genuine...

A manufacturer recommended OCI is not proven safe/reliable simply because the manufacturer issues a warranty for a fraction of the cars life. In fact, BMW proves this by revising their recommended OCI after their engines begin to fail from sludge build up etc.

BMW is not very concerned with what happens after their warranty is up. Especially considering the majority of their sales is in leases.

I don't recall anyone here saying the chain is the sole culprit. However, I am pretty sure BMW did revise the oil pump chain (and possibly the timing chain as well IIRC) which were both suspected factors. But yes, the most notable issue overall is the plastic guides breaking and clogging the oil pick up. Lot's of variables at play.

Regarding the metal chain guide...I'd love to see a part number compatible with the n20. Feel free to enlighten us.

Glad you and sspade addressed that comment so I didn't have to

Regarding the metal chain guides, let me save you from waiting: they don't exist.

[Linc0909]

Originally Posted by BettyFkinCrocker

With the level of ignorance in his post, I'd imagine it's an intentional troll.

In case not and his ignorance is genuine...

A manufacturer recommended OCI is not proven safe/reliable simply because the manufacturer issues a warranty for a fraction of the cars life. In fact, BMW proves this by revising their recommended OCI after their engines begin to fail from sludge build up etc.

BMW is not very concerned with what happens after their warranty is up. Especially considering the majority of their sales is in leases.

I don't recall anyone here saying the chain is the sole culprit. However, I am pretty sure BMW did revise the oil pump chain (and possibly the timing chain as well IIRC) which were both suspected factors. But yes, the most notable issue overall is the plastic guides breaking and clogging the oil pick up. Lot's of variables at play.

Regarding the metal chain guide...I'd love to see a part number compatible with the n20. Feel free to enlighten us.

I am far from an intentional troll. I have over 15 yrs of working experience in heavy line (engine) repair with multiple certifications in engine repair and performance. My post was in response to the initial posts made here, I did not realize at the time that there were multiple pages to this post. The initial posters stated it was a chain issue, from the NTSB web site I read that the culprit in engine failure for these engines was a plastic guide(s) and that the replacement part was metal. Now whether that is metal reinforced I am not sure.

As far as my statement on oil changes you can say I'm ignorant all you want but I'm not some internet, weekend shade tree that has no idea. Companies are about liability and if a damn Dodge Charger can go over 8k between changes with no issues into 200,000+ mileage I'm sure BMW's 12k interval is ideal. If a manufacturer recommends a service interval and it is found to be incorrect, even beyond the warranty and leases they can still be found civilly liable.

I am trying to find the NHTSA reports that I found when I 1st purchased my 328 and did some research. When I do I will be more than happy to post them to show that the information I gave was from a reliable source.

[Linc0909]

NHTSA ID: 11102686 indicates the failure due to the plastics guide

NHTSA ID: 11102348 indicates that the failing plastic part was replaced with a metal one in 2015. (Again if this is just metal reinforced it does not specify)


It will not allow me to copy and past the whole article so feel free to go to the NHTSA web site and read for your self. There are 35 engine complaints submitted to the NHTSA these are just 2 examples of the major engine failures.

[topside844]

Well, my story keeps getting better. Just received the following email from my SA:

Hello! I am sorry to be responding so late but I have an updated quote @ $1213.93 for both parts and labor warranty time after 25% goodwill from BMW NA.

As far as the state of the timing assembly, I will ask the tech.

I’ll update the thread once I get details on the state of the timing chain and guides. With regards to upgrading to an M3 after winning that $32K jackpot... I definitely did go look at an M3 this weekend! However, I’m looking to buy my first house soon with a full 20% down payment, so I’ll likely be in the F30 for another year.

[topside844]

I just received an update from my SA.

“One piece of the plastic guides was snapped and the chain was stretched causing low oil pressure faults.”

So it does not look like my chain failed completely, it was just stretched. I’d be curious if that is the determining factor in whether the entire engine vs just chain/guide needs to be replaced upon failure.

[RMachuca3d]

Originally Posted by Linc0909

I am far from an intentional troll. I have over 15 yrs of working experience in heavy line (engine) repair with multiple certifications in engine repair and performance. My post was in response to the initial posts made here, I did not realize at the time that there were multiple pages to this post. The initial posters stated it was a chain issue, from the NTSB web site I read that the culprit in engine failure for these engines was a plastic guide(s) and that the replacement part was metal. Now whether that is metal reinforced I am not sure.

As far as my statement on oil changes you can say I'm ignorant all you want but I'm not some internet, weekend shade tree that has no idea. Companies are about liability and if a damn Dodge Charger can go over 8k between changes with no issues into 200,000+ mileage I'm sure BMW's 12k interval is ideal. If a manufacturer recommends a service interval and it is found to be incorrect, even beyond the warranty and leases they can still be found civilly liable.

I am trying to find the NHTSA reports that I found when I 1st purchased my 328 and did some research. When I do I will be more than happy to post them to show that the information I gave was from a reliable source.

Dodge chargers are NA, not turbo’d, apples to oranges. Also, changing oil frequently will greatly reduce the chances of pre ignition due to blowby contaminating the oil over time, lowering its resistance and in essence diluting the effectiveness of the oil, ontop of that oil sludge from long oci will block lubrication channels to the chain/guides further increasing the likelyhood of premature wear/damage.

Stick to working on tractors.

[sspade]

Originally Posted by topside844

I just received an update from my SA.

“One piece of the plastic guides was snapped and the chain was stretched causing low oil pressure faults.”

So it does not look like my chain failed completely, it was just stretched. I’d be curious if that is the determining factor in whether the entire engine vs just chain/guide needs to be replaced upon failure.

This would be determined by whether or not the engine is INTERFERENCE type setup.

Considering the N20 is interference....

When the engine jumps timing, the pistons and valves will be off schedule and bang into each other in violent fashion.

If the engine loses timing and is not shut off IMMEDIATELY... its toast.

Non-interference motors do not have this problem.

[BettyFkinCrocker]

Originally Posted by Linc0909

I have over 15 yrs of working experience in heavy line (engine) repair with multiple certifications in engine repair and performance.

And I am a YouTube certified mechanic and a space cowboy.

All self proclaimed qualifications above have equal value on an anonymous forum. Furthermore, any amount of unrelated experience means nothing when attempting to apply it with ZERO actual experience and knowledge on the specific scenario at hand...rather using blanket observations.

Originally Posted by Linc0909

The initial posters stated it was a chain issue, from the NTSB web site I read that the culprit in engine failure for these engines was a plastic guide(s) and that the replacement part was metal. Now whether that is metal reinforced I am not sure.

The new/revised/replacement guides are not metal nor metal reinforced in any way. The only metal in the plastic guides are the bolt guides which existed on the old guides as well. Clearly your sources (yes even NTSB can be wrong) are inaccurate. You can pull the part number from BMW themselves, realoem or any other site and cross reference. Just another example of your "experience" showing.

Originally Posted by Linc0909

Companies are about liability and if a damn Dodge Charger can go over 8k between changes with no issues into 200,000+ mileage I'm sure BMW's 12k interval is ideal. If a manufacturer recommends a service interval and it is found to be incorrect, even beyond the warranty and leases they can still be found civilly liable.

Companies are not solely "about liability". They weigh cost/benefit. It costs them less to service leases if the OCI is longer. This is also seen with the "lifetime" transmission fluid of the zf8hp even though ZF themselves recommend a fluid change at 60-90k miles. However, at some point that concern of cost is outweighed by the bad publicity (and cost to repair) that follows when OCI's (among other variables) impact reliability in a large way. Again, BMW REVISED the initial OCI. Sure, you could go 12k OCI...it could be fine. But it is far from "ideal". And sure, you could sue a multi-billion dollar car manufacturer...pay your attorneys with your 9-5 salary. However, most people do not have the resources to do so and often lose when they try. In rare cases where the problem is prevalent enough, a class action can be drawn (Subaru rod bearing suit). Again...rare cases.

Don't come to this forum (or any forum) with your anecdotal "experience" assuming you know more than everyone or anyone.

[rjd_F30]

Originally Posted by Linc0909

I am far from an intentional troll. I have over 15 yrs of working experience in heavy line (engine) repair with multiple certifications in engine repair and performance. My post was in response to the initial posts made here, I did not realize at the time that there were multiple pages to this post. The initial posters stated it was a chain issue, from the NTSB web site I read that the culprit in engine failure for these engines was a plastic guide(s) and that the replacement part was metal. Now whether that is metal reinforced I am not sure.

As far as my statement on oil changes you can say I'm ignorant all you want but I'm not some internet, weekend shade tree that has no idea. Companies are about liability and if a damn Dodge Charger can go over 8k between changes with no issues into 200,000+ mileage I'm sure BMW's 12k interval is ideal. If a manufacturer recommends a service interval and it is found to be incorrect, even beyond the warranty and leases they can still be found civilly liable.

I am trying to find the NHTSA reports that I found when I 1st purchased my 328 and did some research. When I do I will be more than happy to post them to show that the information I gave was from a reliable source.

If you work on industrial engine repair, you of all people should know how paramount good lubrication is to the longevity of an ICE.

I don't know how you can unironically suggest that a 12k mile OCI is just as conducive to low long-term engine wear as is a 5k mile OCI. It's just silly.

BMW's by-the-book service recommendations are designed to make them money, not keep your car running ideally for as long as possible.

[ColinGSeries]

Does anyone know if this is an issue with the B46/B48 engine as well, or can I assume this has been fixed?

[RMachuca3d]

Assume fixed for now

[rjd_F30]

Originally Posted by ColinGSeries

Does anyone know if this is an issue with the B46/B48 engine as well, or can I assume this has been fixed?

I don't think B46/B48 is affected by the timing chain issue. I would hope BMW would have learned after the N20

[Solidjake]

Here's my chain. Looks like some scoring on the sides? or is that normal.

71k miles, 09/2012 build 328i

[rjd_F30]

Originally Posted by Solidjake

Here's my chain. Looks like some scoring on the sides? or is that normal.

71k miles, 09/2012 build 328i

Pretty sure that's normal, mine looks the same.

[bimmer456]

Originally Posted by Axman85

Great, another problem i have to worry about on my F30 335. Although this car may be fun to drive, quality wise its a piece of shit. Never heard of having to replace a timing chain; belt yes, chain no. Even the damn oil filter housing gasket leaks and needs a time consuming repair. What next, the sheetmetal going to fall off. I have 76k miles and this certainly my first and last BMW.

N series cars seem to be ticking time bombs. The b series motors seem to be better at not grenadine themselves.

[RMachuca3d]

Originally Posted by 3onDubs

What's the lowest mileage people have reported with this issue? Is it only a concern once you go over 70K?

Have read some as low as 20-30k miles, but very few, its mostly after 70k miles.

[madmortar]

so anyone ACTUALLY pony up and hire an Indy to do this as preventive maintenance.

Not to be negative but this thread is kinda turning into the other dozen we have on this subject. reasons WHY we think it happens...peoples experience getting it repair via dealership, etc. Would really like to start seeing some costs and shops around the US that have successfully done this before any issues come up and simply because the owner wanted to nip it in the butt before hand.

[F30ed]

Originally Posted by BettyFkinCrocker

the plastic guides breaking and clogging the oil pick up

That is true.... Then why not to change oil pickup the way that it can not be clogged? That would be a a good preventative measure. Something simple, like ... coarse net on oil intake, so plastic parts can not be simply sucked in and block the supply. This will prevent catastrophic oil pressure drop, will let you drive until you can replace the chain.

If someone comes with the design of this add-on, it will be in demand. And the procedure will be simple - drop oil pan, plug in the add-on, reinstall oil pan.
----------------------
Edit: OK, looks like standard suction pipe already has that coarse net in it. Then how the hack plastic parts block it? I understand they may obstruct some oil flow, but not all. Maybe that small circular area just needs to be enlarged? Making it bigger will let enough oil in even with some blockage.

[rjd_F30]

Originally Posted by F30ed

That is true.... Then why not to change oil pickup the way that it can not be clogged? That would be a a good preventative measure. Something simple, like ... coarse net on oil intake, so plastic parts can not be simply sucked in and block the supply. This will prevent catastrophic oil pressure drop, will let you drive until you can replace the chain.

If someone comes with the design of this add-on, it will be in demand. And the procedure will be simple - drop oil pan, plug in the add-on, reinstall oil pan.
----------------------
Edit: OK, looks like standard suction pipe already has that coarse net in it. Then how the hack plastic parts block it? I understand they may obstruct some oil flow, but not all. Maybe that small circular area just needs to be enlarged? Making it bigger will let enough oil in even with some blockage.

It can get blocked pretty severely by plastic parts and oil pressure will drop dramatically. A bigger pickup would probably work...