[ATLBlue]

Originally Posted by drob23

Definitely makes sense about the 911 line. I just went to mid-ohio with the PCA club, and man those cars can rotate lol...on really long double apex small radius turns (keyhole and carousel at MO) they track WAY further out mid turn and then really swing in for an earlier second apex than I could ever imagine in my car. So trying to follow them absolutely scrubs my front tires into oblivion with the understeer lol

Btw - were you rotating your tires between days? Definitely a HUGE advantage of a square setup.

We have a pretty awesome track drivers thread on AZ here. The main differences on track between the cars are IMO: f30 has much better brakes (S4 has HORRIBLE brakes for size), issues with cooling (the 3.0T will heak soak, but there are no issues with cooling on track), S4 SLA front suspension means camber isn't needed as much as the F30, S4 is definitely heavier. But other than that, the experience there is pretty transferable to the F30 IMO.

I've found the e9x M3 section here is pretty awesome for threads on track driving.

Agree on all points, especially "So trying to follow them absolutely scrubs my front tires into oblivion with the understeer".

I do not have a square setup for now, but I may go for one for the track.

I'll take a look at the AZ thread with delight. I have been active on AZ a few years ago and enjoyed modifying my S4: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...r-Gray-Project . After several months, and being about to take it to the track, I test drove a Cayman R and could not resist to its appeal.

[drob23]

Originally Posted by ATLBlue

Agree on all points, especially "So trying to follow them absolutely scrubs my front tires into oblivion with the understeer".

I do not have a square setup for now, but I may go for one for the track.

I'll take a look at the AZ thread with delight. I have been active on AZ a few years ago and enjoyed modifying my S4: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...r-Gray-Project . After several months, and being about to take it to the track, I test drove a Cayman R and could not resist to its appeal.

That's a great build thread, looks like an awesome ride through car ownership (pun intended haha)! Will continue to follow this thread and see how things work out for your F30.

I would switch into a cayman on a dime if it didn't have the negative connotation out here. There are so few nice cars around where I live/work that people assume a Cayman is as exotic as a Lamborghini. It's already bad enough with 4 rings.

[ATLBlue]

Originally Posted by drob23

That's a great build thread, looks like an awesome ride through car ownership (pun intended haha)! Will continue to follow this thread and see how things work out for your F30.

I would switch into a cayman on a dime if it didn't have the negative connotation out here. There are so few nice cars around where I live/work that people assume a Cayman is as exotic as a Lamborghini. It's already bad enough with 4 rings.

I have been lucky enough to be in an area with a lot more Porsche enthusiasts than Porsche snobs and always got thumbs ups. After the Cayman, I got a couple of 911's that have had their fair share of modifications and spent a good part of their weekends at the track. Since I am in the process of relocating to Europe where I originally came from (probably early next year), I went for an F30, and was considering an S4 as an alternative, to limit the depreciation hit on my last car in the U.S. (and because I love those cars too). There is no way I would bring a car back to Europe (shipping, taxes, modifications to comply with EU rules...) and having a Porsche where I live overseas is pretty much out of the question: high taxes, very bad attitude of people towards luxury cars, you would probably find your car keyed or vandalized if you left it downtown for the night etc. So bimmer (or Audi) it will be there too, and these are already great cars IMHO.
Enough threadjacking, let's go back to the track

[ATLBlue]

Repeat post from my journal, but thought I might as well do it in the tracking forum...

Track pics orgy

Not sure how much is too many... so I am posting a lot of pictures of my track weekend at Barber Motorsportspark

[ATLBlue]

You stated:

Originally Posted by The HACK

That wear is typical of any tire(s) that spent too much time past the optimum slip angle

and looking at this picture, you were certainly right:

[whoisthis]

wait, how do you have the track map on Navi?

[ATLBlue]

Originally Posted by whoisthis

wait, how do you have the track map on Navi?

M laptimer app on my iPhone connected via USB to the iDrive.

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by ATLBlue

One major grudge I hold against BMW is the fact that the HUD will not show anything else than your speed .

That's easy to fix. Included on any m car with hud shows you a tach. Easy....just not cheap.

Enjoyed your post btw

[nicknaz]

nice pics! Were you able to add more front negative camber when you went to the Bilsteins?

[ATLBlue]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

nice pics! Were you able to add more front negative camber when you went to the Bilsteins?

No, Bilsteins have vastly improved the suspension but does not provide any freedom to adjust camber (inherent to the F30). Meanwhile, I have installed the F8x lower front control arms and increased negative camber by 1.0.
This, combined with slightly wider front tires and using a firmer setting for rear coilovers has definitely reduced understeer.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by ATLBlue

No, Bilsteins have vastly improved the suspension but does not provide any freedom to adjust camber (inherent to the F30). Meanwhile, I have installed the F8x lower front control arms and increased negative camber by 1.0.
This, combined with slightly wider front tires and using a firmer setting for rear coilovers has definitely reduced understeer.

-1.7 is more camber than F8X owners report (and you are using the same control arm). Is front camber adjustable for F3X?

What do you think of going to zero toe for the front?

[ATLBlue]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

-1.7 is more camber than F8X owners report (and you are using the same control arm). Is front camber adjustable for F3X?

What do you think of going to zero toe for the front?

The front camber can not be adjusted on F3x and using the F8x control arms is a bit of a cheaper trick (than camber plates) if you are happy with the resulting camber and do not need adjustability.

I already gained a bit of negative camber when I lowered the car and the F8x control arms are about 10mm longer than the F3x, so it is conceivable that the combination of the F3x parts + F8x control arms gives more negative camber than a complete F8x suspension that also has other F8X specific parts.

I have been satisfied with a bit of front toe out and the car still feels perfectly stable at high speed. This being said, I have only been to Atlanta Motosportspark and Barber Motorsportspark with the F30 and they are lower speed/curvy tracks. Maybe zero toe or even a bit of toe in would be beneficial when I go to Road Atlanta (faster, more high speed slight direction changes).
Now to be honest, I do not have a lot of expertise in alignement and rely on my local tire shop that works on a lot of track cars

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by ATLBlue

if you are happy with the resulting camber

I went through a set of PSS in 3 DEs (2 dry 1 wet) and need to figure something out. Was hoping to keep my F80 stock but probably will need to go at least camber plates

[drob23]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

I went through a set of PSS in 3 DEs (2 dry 1 wet) and need to figure something out. Was hoping to keep my F80 stock but probably will need to go at least camber plates

PSS aren't great track tires from my experience. FANTASTIC street tire, but no temperature stability. Even while running 40 PSI hot in the paddock. If you are running hard enough to chew your sidewall, I'd recommend going with a dedicated setup and some more camber. I know it's not comparable since my car has a SLA front suspension. I added about 1 deg of negative front camber and am seeing the following wear (after 2 events, one at mid-ohio and one at grattan, at the intermediate HPDE level - best time of 150.5 at mid-ohio)



Center tread depth is 8/32".


My events are all run clockwise (which I assume is pretty normal) so some of my inside tire wear is very low


I will probably get the tires flipped and remounted backwards (the ZII is directional) so that I can chew up the other side

Not that it helps since the car is different, but here's my alignment sheet (keep in mind I have front camber correction with adjustable upper control arms).

[Nihilation]

For what it's worth, I just returned from NJMP with my 328i (RWD, non-DHP) and was pleasantly surprised by the lack of understeer exhibited with a square 245 tire setup and Dinan springs. No other suspension modifications.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by drob23

PSS aren't great track tires from my experience. FANTASTIC street tire, but no temperature stability. Even while running 40 PSI hot in the paddock. If you are running hard enough to chew your sidewall, I'd recommend going with a dedicated setup and some more camber. I know it's not comparable since my car has a SLA front suspension. I added about 1 deg of negative front camber and am seeing the following wear (after 2 events, one at mid-ohio and one at grattan, at the intermediate HPDE level - best time of 150.5 at mid-ohio)

thanks for sharing your alignment data and other thoughts

Those pics look a lot like dunlop ZII tires, and that also makes a difference in terms of compound/wear. I'm switching to RE11 on my F80, hopefully I will get more life out of the tires, and if not, will add camber

I'm hesitant to make many more changes since Randy Ppbst posted up that 1:32:XX lap during a recent magazine comparo on a completely stock F80 M3 at big willow. Why bother making changes if I'm still so far off the pace? Part of the issue is that my attachments aren't bronzed enough to fully commit in T8/T9 on greasy/squirmy PSS tires.. clear sign as to why he is a pro and i'm an avg joe

[drob23]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

thanks for sharing your alignment data and other thoughts

Those pics look a lot like dunlop ZII tires, and that also makes a difference in terms of compound/wear. I'm switching to RE11 on my F80, hopefully I will get more life out of the tires, and if not, will add camber

I'm hesitant to make many more changes since Randy Ppbst posted up that 1:32:XX lap during a recent magazine comparo on a completely stock F80 M3 at big willow. Why bother making changes if I'm still so far off the pace? Part of the issue is that my attachments aren't bronzed enough to fully commit in T8/T9 on greasy/squirmy PSS tires.. clear sign as to why he is a pro and i'm an avg joe

Yup ZII tires. They are wearing great. Taking them to mid-ohio with bmwcca this weekend, hoping for another awesome time and reducing my times. I was just reading an article in grassroots motorsports, and it appears that ZII's are one of the favorite tire choices for chump car and other enduro guys...which is good to see!

And regarding pobst...yea...he also gets to destroy other people tires and not give two fucks about rotating them or having the discount tire guy scuff the wheels. He gets to just move on and take a 991 GT3 RS out there the next time...

So with that said, my tire choice is primarily for longevity, cost and then performance last. If you really wanted to kill lap times, then running some hoosiers or pirelli slicks would probably be the short term drug. But running street tires will help you long term to become a better driver

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by drob23

So with that said, my tire choice is primarily for longevity, cost and then performance last.

My Z435 was using ZII and I'm switching my M3 to RE-11 so I'm in the street tire camp as well, for the same reasons you mentioned

I was super disappointed to be almost cording the front PSS on my F80 after a handful of DEs, when the ZII on my Z435 were barely worn after the same number of events. Both cars stock and similar weight

[ATLBlue]

Uneventful trackday at Atlanta Motorsports Park.
I'll do something about my tires eventually. I ran both the Michelin PSS and the stock Potenza. The PSSs were consistently about 1s quicker while the Potenza felt more planted and easier to control. I will look into something different when the time comes to replace one of the sets...

Short video... with music to cover the wind noise.

[E30toF30]

Love this thread. Thank you for sharing!!

I hate that up here in the PNW, we can't have track days throughout the year (well, i'd prefer to only go on non-rainy days). Makes me wish I lived down in California where track days all year round are the norm...

[sly1types]

It's nice to see that the Msport can take the heat, I was worried about the oil also. I guess thinking about it more... on the Msport cars aren't those oil coolers on each side where the fog lights would normally be?

I might take my 335 out for a single day and see how the performance BBK holds up with the stock pads.

Also aren't there any PFC 01 or 08 that will fit the calipers?

[MickAv8r]

My 328ix at Lime Rock back in September. I did three track days this year, Thompson, Lime Rock and finished the season Saturday at NH Motor Speedway.

Car has the stock 330mm P337A brakes. Less than ideal but I upgraded to stainless brake lines, Hawk 5.0 pads and Motul RBF 600 fluid. I've also run the Hawk Street Race pads but the dust and noise were unbearable those stopping power was mind boggling. The Hawk 5.0 pads have been fantastic trading some stopping bite for little dust and little noise. Lime Rock and NHMS are relatively easy on the brakes with plenty of time to cool between braking zones but experience no fade at either with this setup.

I'm currently running 255/40/18 PSS square and have been quite happy but may look at going to a dedicated track tire and keep the PSS street only especially as I anticipate doing far more than three track days next year.

The car is lowered on DINAN springs but no other suspension mods have been made.

Now besides just craving more power the number one issue on the track I've been having is with bouncyness. The car overall is pretty planted but the rear end can get a bit squarely/bouncy on some bumps. There is no lip spoiler on the trunk and I do plan on adding one but wondering what else should I consider? Bilstein HD's maybe?