F30POST
F30POST
2012-2015 BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum (F30 / F32) | F30POST > 2012-2019 BMW 3 and 4-Series Forums > Regional Forums > UK > UK - Off Topic > The M Car a go-go…
proTUNING Freaks
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-27-2021, 07:01 AM   #1
DaveA
Colonel
DaveA's Avatar
No_Country
636
Rep
2,096
Posts

Drives: M135iX - Due Soon
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Teesside

iTrader: (0)

The M Car a go-go…

OK, so, when I was in the dealers the other week I was stood next to a brand new M3 and the sales person asked, in passing, whether or not I would have one…

The answer was a respectful “no”… It all just looked rather, well, unnecessary to me… and if I was looking for something in that sort of price bracket I would almost certainly be stood in a Porsche dealer…

Got me thinking that whilst M cars might be capable and well engineered, they are simply cars to fit a marketing gap and that is not what M cars originally were, at least to me…

Truthfully, I feel there have only ever been three “true” M Cars… M1, E30 M3 and E36 M3 GT… These were the ones built and homologated for racing… Or, rounding that argument, each would not have been built unless it was needed to homologate a race car…

Each was rather limited in numbers and each would get that knowing look from fellow car/race nerds who happened to know and understand the significance of the car… There was something special about them other than sheer capability… BMW’s answers to the Porsche 934, Sierra Cosworth, Delta Integrale, etc…

I do not include more recent M cars that had race car equivalents as, truthfully, these race cars were not really race car homologations from road cars, but bespoke racers using elements of the road cars (which actually came first)… Those three I mentioned were cars built because they had to be built to race them…

Other early "M" cars seemed to recognise this distinction between whether or not a car was there to homologate or not in their naming... Using motorsport derived engines and/or knowledge in street cars not designed for race homologation, the first "not an M car M car" was arguably the M535i followed by the (now) highly sought after M635i...

(the M635i was known as the M6 in the USA, and this is possibly where the marketing aspects of M branding started to come in)

The M cars that followed these early ones seem to start the trend towards using the "M" as the halo model in some of the ranges in the line up...

The current M cars seem almost over the top when compared to an E30 M3 (for instance)… I actually feel the M-Lite cars are closer in spirit to an E30 M3 (and I owed one, so have my own terms of reference) whereas the M cars have become a range within a brand… and I get this, when comparing to Audi’s RS and Mercedes’ AMG cars…

We may never see another M car like the E30 M3 as racing does not seem to want to work like that anymore… The link to “product” is more a marketing strategy (like VW’s TCR Golfs… these were not homologation cars built to race in TCR, they used VW’s racing in TCR - now abandoned - to brand a special edition model)…

It bothers me not that M branding has spread across the range, so we have m styling influenced M-Sport models, M-lite models and full blown M cars... Makes sense to have a defined pattern...

... and BMW can use their branding however they see fit...

Just a few musings for a Tuesday morning…
__________________
CAR HISTORY - Golf GTI 245 Performance - F30 340i M Sport Auto - F30 330d M Sport Auto w/t M Performance Power Pack - F30 320d Sport - 997 Gen2 GT3 - Cayman S - Boxster S - Ibiza Cupra - Polo 16v - E30 M3 (genuine GB import) - Integra 16v - Polo S - Mk1 Golf C

Last edited by DaveA; 04-27-2021 at 08:07 AM..
Appreciate 2
sahajesh1234.00
      04-27-2021, 07:10 AM   #2
mikeoz
Brigadier General
mikeoz's Avatar
United Kingdom
2198
Rep
4,897
Posts

Drives: BMW X3 M40i
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: cambs

iTrader: (1)

Very nicely written...Unfortunately the Branding/Marketing men run these company's now a days so the "M" will filter down the range just as AMG does on a 220d...
Appreciate 0
      04-27-2021, 07:25 AM   #3
HighlandPete
Lieutenant General
4692
Rep
13,131
Posts

Drives: BMW F11 535i Touring
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Scotland, Highland Region

iTrader: (0)

We mustn't forget the 'importance' of the E12 M535i and E28 M535i saloon cars, leading to the first full blown E28 M5. This history predates the E30 M3.

One of my colleagues ran the E12 M535i, while I had a humble E12 528. A taste of what was to come in the E28.
Appreciate 1
mikeoz2198.00
      04-27-2021, 07:56 AM   #4
DaveA
Colonel
DaveA's Avatar
No_Country
636
Rep
2,096
Posts

Drives: M135iX - Due Soon
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Teesside

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
We mustn't forget the 'importance' of the E12 M535i and E28 M535i saloon cars, leading to the first full blown E28 M5. This history predates the E30 M3.

One of my colleagues ran the E12 M535i, while I had a humble E12 528. A taste of what was to come in the E28.
Indeed, and it was those early E12 cars I was referring to when I mentioned the M535 ...

Father of the guy who owned the local garage when I had my M3 had an E12 M535i ... The E12 M535i's were special cars which, IIRC, were all hand finished at Garching...

The E28 M535 was possibly the first use of "M" in in the way I think of as eventually becoming the "M-Sport" models... The M535 basically being a 535 with some cosmetic bits and some suspension mods... the E28 M5 had the 24v from the M1, IIRC... as did M635i...
__________________
CAR HISTORY - Golf GTI 245 Performance - F30 340i M Sport Auto - F30 330d M Sport Auto w/t M Performance Power Pack - F30 320d Sport - 997 Gen2 GT3 - Cayman S - Boxster S - Ibiza Cupra - Polo 16v - E30 M3 (genuine GB import) - Integra 16v - Polo S - Mk1 Golf C

Last edited by DaveA; 04-27-2021 at 08:05 AM..
Appreciate 1
      04-27-2021, 12:33 PM   #5
frchdragon
First Lieutenant
frchdragon's Avatar
Canada
243
Rep
306
Posts

Drives: 13 335ix MSport
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: ON, Canada

iTrader: (0)

Unfortunately, when you sell to a purists, you die. Or you need to be on a niche market and you catter to a very dedicated pool of customers.
When you want to increase your brand and seek more customers, you need to start listening to a broader customer base and what they want.
The X3 came out with very stiff suspension, I loved it, the American market didn,t.
M care are still unique in my books, they had unique parts that weren't shared with any other cars. And we all were looking for these parts to put in our cars.
Unique parts were silly expensive too.

If you want to survive, you need to sell your product to a lot of people. Especially if you custom make a specific product, you need to make sure that you can recoup the investment you make into creating that product.

Toyota was making one basic car that appealed to most people who do not want their car to have a soul. And it worked.
BMW wants to appeal to everybody, look we have 1 to 8 now! pick the size you want, we have it. You want an M badge, we have it.
When you start appealing to everybody, then you stop being special.
__________________
'85 635csi M30 turbo race car
'13 335ix Msport BM3 stage MPPK
Appreciate 0
      04-27-2021, 01:06 PM   #6
Tengocity
General
Tengocity's Avatar
Scotland
6623
Rep
18,827
Posts

Drives: M4 CP/F31 340i/Lotus Exige V6
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Oxfordshire and Scotland sometimes

iTrader: (0)

Dave, you cover a lot of ground, and not 100% sure on what your central point is, but a few thoughts in response...

I think the joke about M standing for Marketing, rather than Motorsport is now as old as the E36 M3. That companies make products to fit a part of the Market isn't a bad thing in of itself as ultimately they need to make money, and the only way to do that is make a product that enough people want, at a price they're prepared to pay for it, which is more than it's costing you to make it. How you optimise that clearly something BMW and others have got right, and plenty of car companies have got wrong.

The reality is however, the true enthusiast driver is a remarkably rare (and often quite tight!) individual, and hasn't been enough of a market for many companies to survive on, and certainly not if they aspire to be a volume car maker. Look at Lotus over the years for example, or even Alpine more recently. Even a brand as strong as Porsche needed to make SUVs to remain as a viable business, despite the 911 being the best selling sports car in the world.

You are clearly a Porsche fan, as am I, but let's not pretend that they are anything less than one of the best marketed car brands out there. The are exceptional at projecting the brand and lifestyle image, and the link to Motorsport, despite being a company that makes more SUVs than sports cars.
I don't see that as a bad thing at all, whereas lots of folk seem to think that Marketing is a dirty word.
They do however make a great handling vehicle, whatever class it's in, but at a price.

On the subject of homologation, I don't really know what your point is beyond the original M3 being a homologation special originally? There was an E30 M3 convertible, so even back then there was more than Motorsports aspect to the creation of that car! Ultimately even a homologation special is a marketing tool, (as the old adage was Race on Sunday, Sales on Monday (or whatever)), designed to promote a car to be sold. That it was used to race too is quite cool, but I don't see why it should be the be all and end all?

Many great drivers cars have not been homologation specials, and I don't see why it's that important? The main benefit seems to be about limited build and the subsequently what that does to future values and cachet?

However what I do notice is that on any UK track day BMWs make up a huge proportion of the cars there, same if you go to the Nordschleife on a TF session. There are always loads of M cars being used as intended on track, as well as other models, so whilst they may not have the purity you desire they obviously get something right for those of us unable to afford a Porsche GT car. In contrast you hardly see any Mercs or Audis, and only the occasional Alfa. So I still think that BMW make the car of choice for enthusiast drivers, at a certain price point. I still think that counts for something.

Specifically they make sporting saloons, and it's that everyday usability is key part of why they can sell the volume that they do. Making a great all rounder is not easy, and in fact possibly one of the hardest things to do, as you can't be weak in any area. You are absolutely right that the Mcar is now about being the halo of the range, and that cause some challenges for them. Plenty people buy them for that reason, but then find that a car that is track capable means it's compromised in other areas too, like firm ride, or fuel consumption, road noise, or whatever. So, I give them a bit more credit that you do I suppose.
__________________
Current: 2018 M4 Competition, 2016 F31 340i MSport tourer, Lotus Exige V6
Gone...G20 330e, F30 330e, Boxster S 987, F31 335d, Mini Cooper SD, E89 Z4, E90 330d 320d, E60 520d, E46 330d 320d, MX5s, E30 325i
Appreciate 6
sahajesh1234.00
G50410.50
t5pilot810.00
KRS_SN2724.00
      04-27-2021, 01:14 PM   #7
KRS_SN
Lieutenant Colonel
2724
Rep
1,921
Posts

Drives: G05,F15, F34, E91,f45
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Glasgow

iTrader: (0)

I've never owned an M car so I probably have no clue. My personal opinion is that the real culprit is the UK roads are neither suitable for cars with a firm suspension nor suitable for cars with speed.
Appreciate 0
      04-27-2021, 01:56 PM   #8
TouringPleb
Brigadier General
3610
Rep
3,857
Posts

Drives: SRB 440i GC
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Cambs

iTrader: (0)

I'd add the E39 M5 to your list of a 'proper' M car.
Appreciate 0
      04-27-2021, 02:39 PM   #9
HighlandPete
Lieutenant General
4692
Rep
13,131
Posts

Drives: BMW F11 535i Touring
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Scotland, Highland Region

iTrader: (0)

Terry makes some very good points. Some of which I'd been pondering in my thoughts.

Very relevant, the issues with sporting saloons. It is a wide market, no one car fits all requirements. So easy to see how there are markets for all the models. The more usable M-Sport models, the M-lite 'performance' models and the full M-Cars.

We witness an evolving market around us. SUVs... there naturally follows the 'sporting' SUV market. BMW have responded with similar, well proven steps, to that of the saloon ranges.

I suppose guys like myself have seen the changes from the times of BMW exclusivity, pre the 3/5 series cars. The widening of the market, the halo cars and the resulting influence into the extended range of bread and butter models.

Who'd have thought BMW would have sold 13.7 million 3-series examples.
Appreciate 1
Tengocity6622.50
      04-27-2021, 03:41 PM   #10
G50
Lieutenant
G50's Avatar
United Kingdom
411
Rep
499
Posts

Drives: G30 540i xdrive
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Manchester

iTrader: (0)

Hubba Hubba
https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/11328173
Appreciate 0
      04-27-2021, 04:01 PM   #11
Wills2
Hot hatch man
Wills2's Avatar
United Kingdom
7051
Rep
11,334
Posts

Drives: Golf GTI TCR
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: West Yorkshire

iTrader: (0)

e30 M3 borne out of racing rules that said you had to make a road going version, so they produced the heaviest most powerful and best equipped 3 series at the time and called it the M3 and it sold, so they have continued to do just that, each one being heavier/more powerful and leather electric heated everything than the standard cars they're based on just like the first one was.

(baring a few exceptions that actually serve to give authority to the rule like the CSL and GTS)

Nothing new to see here just the same old rose tinted glasses.
__________________
Golf GTI/Z4C, Gone X3MC/G11 740d xdrive/F80 M3/F10 M5/F31 335d/e92 M3 x 2/F10 520d x 2/997 C2S/e46 M3/e46 320d/SL320/Touareg 3.2V6/Audi allroad 2.7TDi
Appreciate 0
      04-27-2021, 05:37 PM   #12
JustChris
General
JustChris's Avatar
Isle of Man
13177
Rep
22,238
Posts

Drives: Car
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Uk

iTrader: (0)

Not including the 1M, M4 GTS or the M2 as true M cars. Interesting.

[IMG]https://media4.giphy.com/media/UlqLD...y.gif&ct=g[/IMG]
__________________
My car once made front page of Bimmerpost
Appreciate 1
      04-28-2021, 04:06 AM   #13
Abzynthe
Lieutenant Colonel
Abzynthe's Avatar
United Kingdom
810
Rep
1,580
Posts

Drives: BMW 440i Gran Coupe LCI
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Cambridgeshire

iTrader: (0)

The M8 was also homologated for racing.
__________________
Previous: 2010 F01 740d M Sport | 2015 F36 420d M Sport w/ M Performance kit
Current: 2018 F36 440i M Sport w/ M Performance kit, MPPSK, AP Intake, BM3 Stage 1 98 RON - Mod Cost so far: £11,405
Appreciate 0
      04-28-2021, 05:33 AM   #14
Tengocity
General
Tengocity's Avatar
Scotland
6623
Rep
18,827
Posts

Drives: M4 CP/F31 340i/Lotus Exige V6
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Oxfordshire and Scotland sometimes

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abzynthe View Post
The M8 was also homologated for racing.
There was a M8 based customer race car, but not sure it was homologated for racing as such.

On a related point there was a E89 Z4 customer GT3 race car, yet they never made a M version of it... does that make it cooler and more desirable in some way? Doesn't seem so.
__________________
Current: 2018 M4 Competition, 2016 F31 340i MSport tourer, Lotus Exige V6
Gone...G20 330e, F30 330e, Boxster S 987, F31 335d, Mini Cooper SD, E89 Z4, E90 330d 320d, E60 520d, E46 330d 320d, MX5s, E30 325i
Appreciate 0
      04-28-2021, 07:10 AM   #15
Abzynthe
Lieutenant Colonel
Abzynthe's Avatar
United Kingdom
810
Rep
1,580
Posts

Drives: BMW 440i Gran Coupe LCI
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Cambridgeshire

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tengocity View Post
There was a M8 based customer race car, but not sure it was homologated for racing as such.

On a related point there was a E89 Z4 customer GT3 race car, yet they never made a M version of it... does that make it cooler and more desirable in some way? Doesn't seem so.
When you start putting certain criteria/rules onto things that arent defined by the manufacturer, its always gets messy when things deviate.
Just like most people say the V8 M3 and the E30 are the best, but they couldn't be any more different. An F30 320i is pretty close to the E30 M3 in terms of power, so if you use the E30 as a definitive M car, then it only comes down the the M badge that the 320i doesnt have...

Just accept what BMW say is an M car. They are the ones that make them after all.
__________________
Previous: 2010 F01 740d M Sport | 2015 F36 420d M Sport w/ M Performance kit
Current: 2018 F36 440i M Sport w/ M Performance kit, MPPSK, AP Intake, BM3 Stage 1 98 RON - Mod Cost so far: £11,405
Appreciate 0
      04-28-2021, 07:41 AM   #16
DaveA
Colonel
DaveA's Avatar
No_Country
636
Rep
2,096
Posts

Drives: M135iX - Due Soon
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Teesside

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tengocity View Post
Dave, you cover a lot of ground, and not 100% sure on what your central point is, but a few thoughts in response...
You’re right, that was a bit of a confused and unfocussed posting from me… the ramblings of an ageing petrol head, perhaps… or, rather, a solo episode of “grumpy old man”… and I appreciate your taking the time to bring a little focus to the wide beam that I cast out… and you make some interesting and valid points...

I guess, primarily, I was trying to bring some focus to my thoughts whilst sat there looking at the new M3… sitting (as it was) almost alongside a 1971 2500 saloon… and wondering where the new car fitted into the grand scheme of things and what it what I thought of as “M”… and how times had changed...

My impressions and knowledge of BMW Motorsport were formed through the 1970’s and into the 1980’s… and I was always a fan… more so than of Porsche… Seeing Quester and Walkinshaw winning the TT in a 3.0 CSL… Ronnie Peterson in a 320 turbo Gp5 car… then though the 80's with the turbo engines in Formula One...

In later life, through my work, I was fortunate to meet many of the folk involved through that era and, also, many of those involved subsequently, right up to present day… and whilst I am a fan of the Porsche road car, I am a huge fan of BMW Motorsport in racing…

I guess, to me, the “true” M cars (my definition, only) are those born of racing… and of the need to race them… and the direct involvement of the Motorsport dept in those cars… that is where I would say the pure spirit of “M” lies… and so I guess I look at the current M road cars and wonder how they fit in to my worldview on that…

But, then, as you rightly point out, that “is M for marketing or motorsport” argument is as old as the first “non racing” M cars are, now.. and, also, it is undeniable that M Division have been responsible for many fine road cars over the years, something which I am not disputing, and do give them a lot of credit…

So I hope you forgive my recycling the old argument…

Ps - the E30 M3 Convertible is perhaps even more aligned to Motorsport, oddly, as they were built at Garching, whereas the “normal” M3’s went down the production line, because of the numbers in which they were required (initially 5,000)…
__________________
CAR HISTORY - Golf GTI 245 Performance - F30 340i M Sport Auto - F30 330d M Sport Auto w/t M Performance Power Pack - F30 320d Sport - 997 Gen2 GT3 - Cayman S - Boxster S - Ibiza Cupra - Polo 16v - E30 M3 (genuine GB import) - Integra 16v - Polo S - Mk1 Golf C

Last edited by DaveA; 04-28-2021 at 12:27 PM..
Appreciate 0
      04-28-2021, 07:49 AM   #17
DaveA
Colonel
DaveA's Avatar
No_Country
636
Rep
2,096
Posts

Drives: M135iX - Due Soon
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Teesside

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
Terry makes some very good points. Some of which I'd been pondering in my thoughts.
I cannot deny that M Division have been responsible for some awesome cars and I don’t think I was particularly clear in my ramblings…

I actually think that the way in which they have gone about building the “M” brand is quite sensible in many ways… It’s just that I also think it is now a distilling of the original “M” associations… BMW M now recognise 15 distinct M cars and 20 M-Lite cars…

I think I am right in saying that single year sales for F80 M3’s in the USA alone were more than the total production run on E30 M3 over 5 years…
__________________
CAR HISTORY - Golf GTI 245 Performance - F30 340i M Sport Auto - F30 330d M Sport Auto w/t M Performance Power Pack - F30 320d Sport - 997 Gen2 GT3 - Cayman S - Boxster S - Ibiza Cupra - Polo 16v - E30 M3 (genuine GB import) - Integra 16v - Polo S - Mk1 Golf C
Appreciate 0
      04-28-2021, 07:54 AM   #18
DaveA
Colonel
DaveA's Avatar
No_Country
636
Rep
2,096
Posts

Drives: M135iX - Due Soon
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Teesside

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wills2 View Post
so they produced the heaviest most powerful and best equipped 3 series at the time and called it the M3
I don’t know if this was meant to be an ironic statement, but that is pretty much not what they did with the E30 M3…
__________________
CAR HISTORY - Golf GTI 245 Performance - F30 340i M Sport Auto - F30 330d M Sport Auto w/t M Performance Power Pack - F30 320d Sport - 997 Gen2 GT3 - Cayman S - Boxster S - Ibiza Cupra - Polo 16v - E30 M3 (genuine GB import) - Integra 16v - Polo S - Mk1 Golf C
Appreciate 0
      04-28-2021, 07:56 AM   #19
DaveA
Colonel
DaveA's Avatar
No_Country
636
Rep
2,096
Posts

Drives: M135iX - Due Soon
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Teesside

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustChris View Post
Not including the 1M, M4 GTS or the M2 as true M cars. Interesting.

[IMG]https://media4.giphy.com/media/UlqLD...giphy.gif&ct=g[/IMG]
Perhaps my view on what is a true M car is narrow, but, no... Grand cars they may be, but not products of the Motorsport dept and not specifically for racing...

I would include the 3.0 CSL "Batmobile" as it was so conceived... but never called an M car..

Actually, I might need to add in the E46 M3 GTR to my list... But I have only ever seen the road car in photographs, and never seen one in real life...
__________________
CAR HISTORY - Golf GTI 245 Performance - F30 340i M Sport Auto - F30 330d M Sport Auto w/t M Performance Power Pack - F30 320d Sport - 997 Gen2 GT3 - Cayman S - Boxster S - Ibiza Cupra - Polo 16v - E30 M3 (genuine GB import) - Integra 16v - Polo S - Mk1 Golf C

Last edited by DaveA; 04-28-2021 at 08:18 AM..
Appreciate 0
      04-28-2021, 08:28 AM   #20
DaveA
Colonel
DaveA's Avatar
No_Country
636
Rep
2,096
Posts

Drives: M135iX - Due Soon
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Teesside

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abzynthe View Post
An F30 320i is pretty close to the E30 M3 in terms of power, so if you use the E30 as a definitive M car, then it only comes down the the M badge that the 320i doesnt have...
The E30 M3 is pretty much the definite M car for me because, basically, it was a reimagining of a car done by a Motorsport Department that was given a free reign to redesign the elements of the base car that would need to be retained in the race version… so new body shape using, where possible, lighter weight materials to incorporate better aero and the space needed for race wheels/tyres… a new racing engine (with all the fixed bits on it) mounted favourably in the engine bay for weight distribution…. Redesigned suspension using different geometry etc…

So whilst the modern day car may have similar power, it is very much nothing like the E30 M3 in many other ways…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abzynthe View Post
Just accept what BMW say is an M car. They are the ones that make them after all.
I think you can disagree without disrespecting... I respect what BMW do, in this respect, but I don't necessarily happen to agree... But, as you say, that is their right and their choice...
__________________
CAR HISTORY - Golf GTI 245 Performance - F30 340i M Sport Auto - F30 330d M Sport Auto w/t M Performance Power Pack - F30 320d Sport - 997 Gen2 GT3 - Cayman S - Boxster S - Ibiza Cupra - Polo 16v - E30 M3 (genuine GB import) - Integra 16v - Polo S - Mk1 Golf C
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:45 PM.




f30post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST