[rondocap]

So I've been trying to improve my driving skills, and have started to feel what potentially good handling feels like.

I know, 2 very different cars, but both have sporting pretensions and it is what i have to compare the driving experience with.

I took both my 335i sedan w/ sport suspension and my Porsche Boxster to a winding course.

First, it was amazing just how much faster the 335i was in the straight sections, and the power was really effortless. This did cause a problem though, I think with the torque it picks up too much power during really curvy one-after-the-other type curves, that are fairly sharp and you do at 30-40mph. It is a little too much power at first and you really have to keep it under control or else you will overshoot the curve.

The 335i closer to the limit on a tighter curve felt a bit softer, with a bit more body roll.

Now, the Boxster was much more suited for this turn-after-turn sort of ordeal. It is slower and has less power, but you can really pin the throttle down and still do the curve fairly smoothly, whereas the BMW would easily overshoot it if you're not careful. Boxster also had much less body roll, and felt neutral with little movement, while the BMW (as is typical of a rwd car) let the back wiggly a bit more.

I know it's funny to say this, but I felt the 335i just has too much power to be really fun in a very tight winding road situation. It blasts in the straights, but is more of handful in the curves.

So what does good handling feel like you if were you quantify it in words? Does what I said make sense knowing these 2 different cars?

[fazi13]

well racing wise if a car is more flat it has better handling, but in terms of driving around for fun, the feeling of being very close to the limit is the best I believe. for instance, driving a Ferrari 458 is fun and all but an average driving would never experience the full potential but on an easier car like a BMW, its much easier to hit the full potential which is where the magic happens. Then, if the wheels slide just that tiny bit where you don't lose total control, that's just a little bonus in my opinion.

also, the BMW being a sedan with less stiff springs has a skidpad grip of .90g while the Porsche Boxster has a skidpad grip of 1.00g (a difference of .1g is quite significant) which is why you'll see more body roll.

I have nothing to compare to, but I absolutely love my 335i in the corners, though they aren't too sharp, but going around a 35mph curve at 55mph is no big deal for the BMW

[dmatre]

Good handling means that you can easily get the car to go where you want it.

Yes, the 335 has more torque, which seems to have gotten you into a situation where you were overdriving the car - so it felt like 'poor handling'. In actuality, it was poor driving.

If the ability to go through any corner with the throttle 'pinned down' was the true measure of good handling, then our old Volvo diesel would be the best handling car in the world. You could mat the throttle and go through hairpin turns (or any other type) without any drama or sense of going to fast (only because it was painfully slow).

The Porsche is a better handling car without question. It is lighter, has a lower center of gravity, and has better steering feel than the 3. However, the 3 is still (without question) a good handling car. It's better than 95% of the other production street cars sold.

However, even good handling doesn't mask improper driving. That's why so many BMW crashes end up on YouTube - a reputation as a good handling car, and an inexperienced driver. When the driver's skill gives out, the only difference between a good handling car and a poor handling car is that the good handling car will crash at significantly higher speeds.

If you want to explore how to enjoy good handling safely, join BMWCCA or PCA and go to some of their schools and track events. You can then explore what good handling is all about in a safe and controlled environment. The skills you learn there will also make you a much better and safer driver in the real world.

[SharkBait]

Originally Posted by rondocap

First, it was amazing just how much faster the 335i was in the straight sections, and the power was really effortless. This did cause a problem though, I think with the torque it picks up too much power during really curvy one-after-the-other type curves, that are fairly sharp and you do at 30-40mph. It is a little too much power at first and you really have to keep it under control or else you will overshoot the curve.

If it's too much power, you need to feather your throttle inputs accordingly. But I'd guess you're probably not braking very hard before you turn in. You can use that extra power to accelerate harder as long as you brake harder on the other end.

[Tom K.]

The main handling difference I notice is due to the Boxster's mid-engined configuration which alters the center of gravity from that of the BMW. And in terms of available power, you should compare the the 335i with a Boxster S, not a base Boxster. Personally, I feel that both my 328i and base Boxster have an ideal balance of power and handling.

Tom

[idrift4wd]

335i does have to much power to handle well. With the JB4, it just throws it off even more.

turning off the turbos makes the car much more controllable, predicable, and since your not spinning tires itll be easier to drive.

[Diablo335]

In a similar vein, I have a BMW boxer twin bike that has effortless big torque and handles really great. Electric motor smooth. But on the really twisty roads I prefer my little Honda CBR250R with a puny 25 hp. I can go WOT out of every turn without worrying about losing the back end. And the light weight allows me to get deeper into the turn approach before braking.

Anyway...different tools for different purposes.

[LuisBoston]

Driving my "lowly" 328xi on a sweeping freeway ramp at 90+ MPH with the salesman telling me to keep my foot down on the gas is what sold the car to me.

Feeling safe with a huge grin at the limits is what good handling means to me.

[tigermack]

When you have more power, you need more brakes or spend more time on the brakes. Doesn't matter how you're throttling out, you can't really make up the time you gained on getting back on the gas early for the straight from braking for the turn beforehand. A car that's more balanced like the Porsche in corners is gonna win the corner exit with the extra traction in the rear anyways.

[vince217]

my definition of a good handling is the confidence (or lack of it to a bad handling car) that you get as you try to take a corner at the quickest speed that you can possibly do. a good handling car will let you know its limits, while a bad handling one will make you feel scared even on a relatively 'easy' corner.

[Bender]

like afternoon delight

[Spensaur]

like having sex

[galahad05]

Good handling to me is immediate response to steering/throttle/brake inputs, with controllability--it follows your directions without slipping/sliding over/understeer, etc. Neutral responses to inputs.
It goes where you point, when you point, like a Lotus.

[SubzeroVR4]

Saying the 335i has too much power for curves is just nonsense. The DRIVER needs to have more control of throttle when exiting the corner and setup for the next curve.

If that is the case motorcycles aren't very good in curves because they carry too much speed.

I think the BMW 335i is a very good handling car. I came from a TL with sport springs and summer tires but with FWD it took careful modulation of throttle to prevent understeer when exiting corners. The 335i with RFT just sticks where I point it. I can only imagine how much better it will be with non RFT summers.

[Wires]

Originally Posted by SubzeroVR4

Saying the 335i has too much power for curves is just nonsense. The DRIVER needs to have more control of throttle when exiting the corner and setup for the next curve.

If that is the case motorcycles aren't very good in curves because they carry too much speed.

I think the BMW 335i is a very good handling car. I came from a TL with sport springs and summer tires but with FWD it took careful modulation of throttle to prevent understeer when exiting corners. The 335i with RFT just sticks where I point it. I can only imagine how much better it will be with non RFT summers.

+1. Sold my Acura CL for my 335. Night and day difference in handling (the near 50/50 weight balance makes a HUGE difference).

But when it comes to handling, the driver has a HUGE impact on how the car handles. Turning at the proper time when entering a curve will load the suspension correcly, and the car will feel like it's on rails. Do it too late, and toss more weight to one side of the car. It then feels like a sloppy old mini-van.

When I took the BMW driving course, the instructor stressed the fact you can only do one thing at a time for the car to handle properly. Turn, brake or accelerate. Entering a corner, you just be using just enough throttle so the exit speed is the same as the entrance speed (you shouldn't be accelerating or braking).

It becomes pretty clear if you play with that concept how the suspension become unsprung as weight shifts around, and the car becomes loose.

[codesurge]

Originally Posted by SubzeroVR4

I think the BMW 335i is a very good handling car. I came from a TL with sport springs and summer tires but with FWD it took careful modulation of throttle to prevent understeer when exiting corners. The 335i with RFT just sticks where I point it. I can only imagine how much better it will be with non RFT summers.

I'll echo your sentiment on the balance aspect; my previous car was a FWD hatchback and when thrown around corners you can feel the nose slide wide if you get too aggressive with the gas. With the E90, you can tell that the front grips better (since it only steers) and excess power will cause the tail to slide just a tad.

Good fun!

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by Wires

+1. Sold my Acura CL for my 335. Night and day difference in handling (the near 50/50 weight balance makes a HUGE difference).

But when it comes to handling, the driver has a HUGE impact on how the car handles. Turning at the proper time when entering a curve will load the suspension correcly, and the car will feel like it's on rails. Do it too late, and toss more weight to one side of the car. It then feels like a sloppy old mini-van.

When I took the BMW driving course, the instructor stressed the fact you can only do one thing at a time for the car to handle properly. Turn, brake or accelerate. Entering a corner, you just be using just enough throttle so the exit speed is the same as the entrance speed (you shouldn't be accelerating or braking).

It becomes pretty clear if you play with that concept how the suspension become unsprung as weight shifts around, and the car becomes loose.

You can turn and brake and turn and accelerate at the same time. I think what your instructor said is that if you are using 100% of the available grip to brake there will be no grip available for turning and you will have to "give back" some braking in order for the car to turn.

This can be illustrated by "The Friction Circle". The friction circle concept was developed in the 60s by the late Mark Donohue and it is still important today as a diagnostic tool. This tool can be used with any type of car (or truck) to graphically represent traction capacity or help identify why your car has lost traction.

"TWO THINGS AT ONCE
Put simply, traction can be used for four purposes: decelerating, accelerating, and cornering left and right. Using only one input at a time (throttle, brakes, or steering) creates a cross, not a circle. Filling in the circle requires combining inputs, or doing two things at the same time, for example, braking, or accelerating while cornering. You can ask tires to do two things at once, but they cannot provide maximum grip in two directions at once. "



There is are visual illustrations of "The Friction Circle" which describe how this works at this link:

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...2F%3B800%3B569

And a good articles here:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...riction-circle

http://www.auto-ware.com/setup/fc1.htm


When entering a corner you should do your downshifting and most of the braking while the car is going straight. You can "trail" off the brakes gradually as you proceed through the corner. This technique is called "trail braking" and can be used to "rotate" the car ("trail brake rotation") as this will induce mild oversteer and rear end will start to step out and help the car steer through the corner. After you fully release the brakes as you proceed through the corner you should go to "maintenance throttle" to maintain speed. Once you have passed the apex you can slowly apply throttle and then go to full throttle at the track out point. At no point should the car be coasting as that can unsettle the car. You should be on the brakes or on the throttle (not necessarily accelerating) at all times and your inputs should always be smooth, never abrupt. This is something that should be practiced in a controlled environment and I would never drive at the limits on public roads.

If you are driving at the limits it will not feel like you are on rails as the car will be sliding. In the words of Mario Andretti "“If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."

CA

[MartyM]

Originally Posted by Bender

like afternoon delight

[Meeni]

Good handling is hard to feel. Bad handling is obvious, so good handling is when you can't feel bad handling

[John 070]

Too bad BMW no longer has the budget....back in 2005-2008 they would demonstrate what good handling was all about.

They brought a RWD 33x, an AWD Audi A4, and an Infiniti G3x RWD, and let the driver try all 3 back-to-back.

When the F30 came out, of course, since the steering changed, they resorted to comparing an AWD F30 to a FWD Audi A4--that's kind of bogus, as they exaggerated the FWD of the Audi.

The only car with electric power steering that still got good reviews is the Boxster S, not even the Carrera S.

[TwinTuning]

Driving my Manual a little hard I could finally feel the good handling.

[codesurge]

Originally Posted by John 070

The only car with electric power steering that still got good reviews is the Boxster S, not even the Carrera S.

How about the NSX?