[Earthmaster]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

The reason these tunes exist is because there is a pretty substantial market for people who don't apply any rigorous analysis in the consequences of the decisions they are making.

There are a few on this forum who absolutely know what the heck they are doing when they modify and truly understand the risks they are taking. They are a minority.

For somebody that hasn't actually dug into actually tuning themselves -your words not mine. Thats a pretty bold claim. You can frame it all you want but from an economics perspective that opinion is completely mislead and is not the reason these tunes exist.

It has to do with money, not engineering or your so called claims of people not knowing anything.

This is not the forum to argue whether these tunes are under engineered or not. However, clearly from the evidence of just the amount of business these tunes take in it is clear that they are engineered enough to satisfy 1000s of customers year round.

Clearly whether people understand the risks of the tunes or not has had no bearing on the business side or effectiveness of these tunes. They have clearly showed performance gains at a relatively low cost.

None of your arguments other then "tunes are under engineered" hold any water.

Right now your just "hating" for no reason at all.

You should stick with engineering and leave the business to the business people.

[jgoens]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

The reason these tunes exist is because there is a pretty substantial market for people who don't apply any rigorous analysis in the consequences of the decisions they are making.

There are a few on this forum who absolutely know what the heck they are doing when they modify and truly understand the risks they are taking. They are a minority.

Based on rigorous analysis of this thread, I have concluded that you should get yourself a JB4, DP and CP and enjoy. And then call it a day.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by Earthmaster

For somebody that hasn't actually dug into actually tuning themselves -your words not mine. Thats a pretty bold claim. You can frame it all you want but from an economics perspective that opinion is completely mislead and is not the reason these tunes exist.

It has to do with money, not engineering or your so called claims of people not knowing anything.

This is not the forum to argue whether these tunes are under engineered or not. However, clearly from the evidence of just the amount of business these tunes take in it is clear that they are engineered enough to satisfy 1000s of customers year round.

Clearly whether people understand the risks of the tunes or not has had no bearing on the business side or effectiveness of these tunes. They have clearly showed performance gains at a relatively low cost.

None of your arguments other then "tunes are under engineered" hold any water.

Right now your just "hating" for no reason at all.

You should stick with engineering and leave the business to the business people.

Originally Posted by jgoens

Based on rigorous analysis of this thread, I have concluded that you should get yourself a JB4, DP and CP and enjoy. And then call it a day.

I'm not trying to be this guy:
http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1254131

Earthmaster, do your financial whiz bang and tell this guy how much it'll cost to replace the long block! Go!

[ronanz]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

I'm not trying to be this guy:
http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1254131

Two different blocks...N20 can't hold what your N55 can. The N55 can hold mid 600'sWHP if done correctly

.

[lens]

Originally Posted by ronanz

Two different blocks...N20 can't hold what your N55 can. The N55 can hold mid 600'sWHP if done correctly

.

^

N54 platform has proven to hold over 450WHP+ no problem for many miles.

Going 400-450WHP isn't even near the maximum potential that the N55 can go, I would say FBO N55 would keep reliabilty no problem as I would call it a "safe" tune if you run the recommended maps on JB4.

[yoandry]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

I'm not trying to be this guy:
http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1254131

Earthmaster, do your financial whiz bang and tell this guy how much it'll cost to replace the long block! Go!

Doesn't matter if it is N20 or N55 but these aren't track cars. N55 no questions will hold better the abuse but you will see failures either way stock or modified cars, something will brake. You need to pay to play.

Even BMW offer tunes and partner with Dinan for more aggressive tunes.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by ronanz

Two different blocks...N20 can't hold what your N55 can. The N55 can hold mid 600'sWHP if done correctly

.

Originally Posted by chaungo

^

N54 platform has proven to hold over 450WHP+ no problem for many miles.

Going 400-450WHP isn't even near the maximum potential that the N55 can go, I would say FBO N55 would keep reliabilty no problem as I would call it a "safe" tune if you run the recommended maps on JB4.

There's little doubt that the N55 is a more stout platform than the N20/26.

Yes, we've seen examples producing significantly more power/torque.

Originally Posted by yoandry

Doesn't matter if it is N20 or N55 but these aren't track cars. N55 no questions will hold better the abuse but you will see failures either way stock or modified cars, something will brake. You need to pay to play.

Even BMW offer tunes and partner with Dinan for more aggressive tunes.

The BMW M PPK seems to have a torque output capped to the ZF specified torque rating for the 8AT. Every other tune exceeds the official ZF rating. Sure, it might be debatable that ZF underrates the 8HP45 but that's another discussion.

If you are tracking the vehicle extensively (which surely is a lot of stress/load on the entire vehcile), do we all agree that an aftermarket tuned car will likely be less reliable than a car in stock configuration? Correct me if I'm wrong, we're simply debating how much less reliable it will be.

Yoandry, obviously if you track the car something will eventually break. If your powertrain is in stock configuration, you may be able to get it resolved under warranty up to 7 years / 100k miles. If your powertrain is not in stock configuration, there's a significant chance such a failure will not be covered under warranty.

[yoandry]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

If you are tracking the vehicle extensively (which surely is a lot of stress/load on the entire vehcile), do we all agree that an aftermarket tuned car will likely be less reliable than a car in stock configuration? Correct me if I'm wrong, we're simply debating how much less reliable it will be.


Yoandry, obviously if you track the car something will eventually break. If your powertrain is in stock configuration, you may be able to get it resolved under warranty up to 7 years / 100k miles. If your powertrain is not in stock configuration, there's a significant chance such a failure will not be covered under warranty.

Agree with you, that's why I have done all my modes under M Performance parts as I have CPO till 2020. But there is also some modes that will help the reliability of ours car. Example, N55 chargepipe, Better intercooler, Better intake filter, etc... NONE of those will do any harm to the car.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by yoandry

Agree with you, that's why I have done all my modes under M Performance parts as I have CPO till 2020. But there is also some modes that will help the reliability of ours car. Example, N55 chargepipe, Better intercooler, Better intake filter, etc... NONE of those will do any harm to the car.

Specific question about your BMW M Performance parts... Would they actually be covered under an extended BMW warranty? I can see the warranty agreement saying they are not, but if that's the extent of the mods, I could see BMW covering related parts in practice.

Also, if I had to have a JB4, I definitely would run it in either disabled or in logging only mode on the track.

[yoandry]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Specific question about your BMW M Performance parts... Would they actually be covered under an extended BMW warranty? I can see the warranty agreement saying they are not, but if that's the extent of the mods, I could see BMW covering related parts in practice.

Also, if I had to have a JB4, I definitely would run it in either disabled or in logging only mode on the track.

Yes, they are all cover under CPO.

[eluded]

time for a knock knock joke.

Knock Knock who's there?

BOOOOM!

[msmiles]

No one on here has run the analysis yet: decreased MTBF due to higher shock loads and material fatigue, occurrence rate of those failures, and expected cost versus expected value from tuning. I've got the books but neither the time nor the willingness as I'm not getting paid to do that.

Engineering is f-in hard. Mechanical engineering is even harder than software engineering (which is, of course, soft. Pun intended). And embedded is no different than any other - you just have eeproms instead of read/write memory like others do. It's a constraint.

Similarly, engines are funny things. You've got mechanical stuff, fluid dynamics stuff, thermo stuff, vibration/fatigue stuff, and lots of constraints outside of pure power (don't forget, manufacturers have to meet fuel economy and emissions standards in addition to reliability!). There's people with many high level graduate degrees who only do parts of that. It's why we need chief engineers.

Steve Dinan does know what he's talking about, because he can strip off fuel economy constraints in his tunes and still meet most of the other requirements while delivering increased power! And I bet he gets the good talent from the OEM, or the same place the OEM does, or more likely, the race teams who push different limits.

Everybody's smarter than you think. They're just looking at different constraints than you or have a different risk profile. Doesn't make them stupid or naive.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by msmiles

No one on here has run the analysis yet: decreased MTBF due to higher shock loads and material fatigue, occurrence rate of those failures, and expected cost versus expected value from tuning. I've got the books but neither the time nor the willingness as I'm not getting paid to do that.

Engineering is f-in hard. Mechanical engineering is even harder than software engineering (which is, of course, soft. Pun intended). And embedded is no different than any other - you just have eeproms instead of read/write memory like others do. It's a constraint.

Similarly, engines are funny things. You've got mechanical stuff, fluid dynamics stuff, thermo stuff, vibration/fatigue stuff, and lots of constraints outside of pure power (don't forget, manufacturers have to meet fuel economy and emissions standards in addition to reliability!). There's people with many high level graduate degrees who only do parts of that. It's why we need chief engineers.

Steve Dinan does know what he's talking about, because he can strip off fuel economy constraints in his tunes and still meet most of the other requirements while delivering increased power! And I bet he gets the good talent from the OEM, or the same place the OEM does, or more likely, the race teams who push different limits.

Everybody's smarter than you think. They're just looking at different constraints than you or have a different risk profile. Doesn't make them stupid or naive.

All true.

However, I don't think it's merely coincidence:

1. BMW M PPK - (in practice) up to extended warranty expiration
2. Dinan - up to original factory warranty expiration
3. JB4 - no warranty
4. Enzo - no warranty

I doubt the majority of tuned car owners here can afford the costs to replace a blown N55 with a new long block.

This is not like some domestic crate engine where you can store a couple of them in the garage and drop them in when you get a blown motor.

[lens]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

All true.

However, I don't think it's merely coincidence:

1. BMW M PPK - (in practice) up to extended warranty expiration
2. Dinan - up to original factory warranty expiration
3. JB4 - no warranty
4. Enzo - no warranty

I doubt the majority of tuned car owners here can afford the costs to replace a blown N55 with a new long block.

This is not like some domestic crate engine where you can store a couple of them in the garage and drop them in when you get a blown motor.

The question is, how many posts on the forum here state that someone blew up their N55 using JB4/Enzo or any other flash tune for the matter?

We've seen mostly N20/N26 platforms, but I have not seen a single thread stating someone blew up their N55, and if there were one, they were running race gas or meth, or the turbo would probably melt first. But on pump gas, I highly doubt it.



The point is, running tunes on the N55 doesn't change much to reliability as it's a pretty well built engine for tuning. Most people have been running JB4 for no problems for over 3 years and well over 30k miles without issues.

[Earthmaster]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

All true.

However, I don't think it's merely coincidence:

1. BMW M PPK - (in practice) up to extended warranty expiration
2. Dinan - up to original factory warranty expiration
3. JB4 - no warranty
4. Enzo - no warranty

I doubt the majority of tuned car owners here can afford the costs to replace a blown N55 with a new long block.

This is not like some domestic crate engine where you can store a couple of them in the garage and drop them in when you get a blown motor.

Again, a non business person talking about stuff thats basic knowledge.

Theres a reason MPPK and Dinan are greater price then JB4 and Enzo, BECAUSE THE EXTRA money you pay is to warranty your car and fix your stuff if it breaks. IF you take that warranty out all 4 are basically the same give or take aggressiveness of tunes and would be priced similarly. Also who are you to say that tuned car owners can't afford to pay for a N55 new long block? Thats not fact thats opinion, give me real numbers not your make believe.

Your arguments are so full of water all the time. SMH.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by Earthmaster

Again, a non business person talking about stuff thats basic knowledge.

Theres a reason MPPK and Dinan are greater price then JB4 and Enzo, BECAUSE THE EXTRA money you pay is to warranty your car and fix your stuff if it breaks. IF you take that warranty out all 4 are basically the same give or take aggressiveness of tunes and would be priced similarly. Also who are you to say that tuned car owners can't afford to pay for a N55 new long block? Thats not fact thats opinion, give me real numbers not your make believe.

Your arguments are so full of water all the time. SMH.

Prices of the following:

BMW MPPK - $995 + (install labor)
Dinan (Stage 1/Stage 2)- $2095+ + (install labor?)
JB4 - $529
Enzotune - $1395 + (shipping)


Now let's review ("generally" ordered from most conservative to least conservative):

1. BMW M PPK - (in practice) up to extended warranty expiration
2. Dinan - up to original factory warranty expiration
3. JB4 - no warranty
4. Enzo - no warranty


Is everyone seeing the same trend that I see? It's almost like auto insurance.

Risk is evaluated. The higher the risk, the higher the cost. However, there's a point at which risk becomes so high that it does not make sense to take on/insure/cover that risk.

Is that not consistent with the these products that are available? The two relatively conservative tunes carry some type of warranty. However, the most expensive/least conservative of these two (Dinan) is only covered up to the expiration of the original factory warranty. It is interesting that Dinan doesn't offer the customer an option to pay an additional premium in order for their warranty cover to go to to the expiration of BMW's extended warranty. If they did, I wonder how much this premium would be valued at.

The other two tunes (JB4 and Enzo-tune) are basically "use at your own risk".

[donkey]

Somebody once told me the world is gonna roll me
I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed
She was looking kind of dumb with her finger and her thumb
In the shape of an "L" on her forehead
Well the years start coming and they don't stop coming
Fed to the rules and I hit the ground running
Didn't make sense not to live for fun
Your brain gets smart but your head gets dumb
So much to do, so much to see
So what's wrong with taking the back streets?
You'll never know if you don't go
You'll never shine if you don't glow
Hey now, you're an all-star, get your game on, go play
Hey now, you're a rock star, get the show on, get paid
And all that glitters is gold
Only shooting stars break the mold
It's a cool place and they say it gets colder
You're bundled up now, wait till you get older
But the meteor men beg to differ
Judging by the hole in the satellite picture
The ice we skate is getting pretty thin
The water's getting warm so you might as well swim
My world's on fire, how about yours?
That's the way I like it and I never get bored
Hey now, you're an all-star, get your game on, go play
Hey now, you're a rock star, get the show on, get paid
All that glitters is gold
Only shooting stars break the mold
Hey now, you're an all-star, get your game on, go play
Hey now, you're a rock star, get the show, on get paid
And all that glitters is gold
Only shooting stars
Somebody once asked could I spare some change for gas?
I need to get myself away from this place
I said yep what a concept
I could use a little fuel myself
And we could all use a little change
Well, the years start coming and they don't stop coming
Fed to the rules and I hit the ground running
Didn't make sense not to live for fun
Your brain gets smart but your head gets dumb
So much to do, so much to see
So what's wrong with taking the back streets?
You'll never know if you don't go (go!)
You'll never shine if you don't glow
Hey now, you're an all-star, get your game on, go play
Hey now, you're a rock star, get the show on, get paid
And all that glitters is gold
Only shooting stars break the mold
And all that glitters is gold
Only shooting stars break the mold

[//M]

Originally Posted by yoandry

Doesn't matter if it is N20 or N55 but these aren't track cars. N55 no questions will hold better the abuse but you will see failures either way stock or modified cars, something will brake. You need to pay to play.

Even BMW offer tunes and partner with Dinan for more aggressive tunes.

Woah woah Woah.... NO they do not. Dinan is 100% independent. BMW gives them zero engineering input or help. Some dealers just choose to partner with them because there [was] a lot of engineering that went into their products. But Steve left the company to go tune and work for Ford, so keep that in mind as well.

Hence why they sell "DinanTronics" now and not real ECU tunes.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by tifosielia

[/b]



Woah woah Woah.... NO they do not. Dinan is 100% independent. BMW gives them zero engineering input or help. Some dealers just choose to partner with them because there [was] a lot of engineering that went into their products. But Steve left the company to go tune and work for Ford, so keep that in mind as well.

Hence why they sell "DinanTronics" now and not real ECU tunes.

Guess they no longer have the MAGIC of ECU tuning anymore ... (sarcasm all around).

Originally Posted by ronanz

Tuning explanation by Steve Dinan

.

[ClevelandBeemer]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Prices of the following:

BMW MPPK - $995 + (install labor)
Dinan (Stage 1/Stage 2)- $2095+ + (install labor?)
JB4 - $529
Enzotune - $1395 + (shipping)


Now let's review ("generally" ordered from most conservative to least conservative):

1. BMW M PPK - (in practice) up to extended warranty expiration
2. Dinan - up to original factory warranty expiration
3. JB4 - no warranty
4. Enzo - no warranty


Is everyone seeing the same trend that I see? It's almost like auto insurance.

Risk is evaluated. The higher the risk, the higher the cost. However, there's a point at which risk becomes so high that it does not make sense to take on/insure/cover that risk.

Is that not consistent with the these products that are available? The two relatively conservative tunes carry some type of warranty. However, the most expensive/least conservative of these two (Dinan) is only covered up to the expiration of the original factory warranty. It is interesting that Dinan doesn't offer the customer an option to pay an additional premium in order for their warranty cover to go to to the expiration of BMW's extended warranty. If they did, I wonder how much this premium would be valued at.

The other two tunes (JB4 and Enzo-tune) are basically "use at your own risk".

[Earthmaster]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Prices of the following:

BMW MPPK - $995 + (install labor)
Dinan (Stage 1/Stage 2)- $2095+ + (install labor?)
JB4 - $529
Enzotune - $1395 + (shipping)


Now let's review ("generally" ordered from most conservative to least conservative):

1. BMW M PPK - (in practice) up to extended warranty expiration
2. Dinan - up to original factory warranty expiration
3. JB4 - no warranty
4. Enzo - no warranty


Is everyone seeing the same trend that I see? It's almost like auto insurance.

Risk is evaluated. The higher the risk, the higher the cost. However, there's a point at which risk becomes so high that it does not make sense to take on/insure/cover that risk.

Is that not consistent with the these products that are available? The two relatively conservative tunes carry some type of warranty. However, the most expensive/least conservative of these two (Dinan) is only covered up to the expiration of the original factory warranty. It is interesting that Dinan doesn't offer the customer an option to pay an additional premium in order for their warranty cover to go to to the expiration of BMW's extended warranty. If they did, I wonder how much this premium would be valued at.

The other two tunes (JB4 and Enzo-tune) are basically "use at your own risk".

Do you not listen to yourself? the point of JB4 and Enzo is to offer high quality tunes at an affordable price. Your argument that the risk is so high they don't offer warranty is completely against the business model they are trying to run. Like if they offered warranty then they wouldn't be following their competitive advantage and following their intended business model.

Also ENZO is more expensive because they flash tune your ECU.

Every single one of your arguments can be shot down with me repeating myself:

These tunes make money, the companies are in business because they are run well and the tunes are well made for their purpose.

the only thing that I can agree with you is that aftermarket tunes can and most likely degrade your OEM parts to a certain extent. however it is very apparent this risk is low or THESE COMPANIES would not be in business.

You should probably slap yourself in the face and go engineer a circle or something. Clearly understanding the business model of these companies is not your forte as you keep making nonsensical and weak arguments against tunes.

Other then shitting on every tuner or tuned car out there maybe you should consider your actually wrong in some points???

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by Earthmaster

Do you not listen to yourself? the point of JB4 and Enzo is to offer high quality tunes at an affordable price. Your argument that the risk is so high they don't offer warranty is completely against the business model they are trying to run. Like if they offered warranty then they wouldn't be following their competitive advantage and following their intended business model.

Also ENZO is more expensive because they flash tune your ECU.

Every single one of your arguments can be shot down with me repeating myself:

These tunes make money, the companies are in business because they are run well and the tunes are well made for their purpose.

the only thing that I can agree with you is that aftermarket tunes can and most likely degrade your OEM parts to a certain extent. however it is very apparent this risk is low or THESE COMPANIES would not be in business.

You should probably slap yourself in the face and go engineer a circle or something. Clearly understanding the business model of these companies is not your forte as you keep making nonsensical and weak arguments against tunes.

Other then shitting on every tuner or tuned car out there maybe you should consider your actually wrong in some points???

If the risk of a failure is so low, then offering a warranty should be of insignificant or negligible cost.

Either you're blindly cheerleading a purchase (tune) that you have already made/committed to or your critical thinking abilities need some serious work.

Familiarize yourself with this: http://www.bachelor-of-education.org/college-major-iq/