[sqwinny]

Originally Posted by 5w20

....

[CanadianM2]

Pertinent to this thread I suppose.

[lens]

Yup.

If you guys support a guy who's basically lying out of his ass and saying his product outperforms the competition and then says his R&D is miles ahead of the competition where his competitors have literally out sold his product for the last few years, idk what to say.

He doesn't even make B58 turbos and he says his R&D is miles ahead lmao.

[LA1Z24]

https://www.on3performance.com/shop/...-turbo-system/

What about this turbo kit? I saw someone elsewhere mention its capable of 700hp on an N55, but their page says about 500ish.

And what do you do about a wastegate on an EWG car?

[lens]

Originally Posted by LA1Z24

https://www.on3performance.com/shop/...-turbo-system/

What about this turbo kit? I saw someone elsewhere mention its capable of 700hp on an N55, but their page says about 500ish.

And what do you do about a wastegate on an EWG car?

BM3 has an option to disable OEM EWG for external wastegate controlled cars.

[sqwinny]

Originally Posted by lens

Yup.

If you guys support a guy who's basically lying out of his ass and saying his product outperforms the competition and then says his R&D is miles ahead of the competition where his competitors have literally out sold his product for the last few years, idk what to say.

He doesn't even make B58 turbos and he says his R&D is miles ahead lmao.

To be fair Doug Harper and Frankenturbo has been around for years. They were one of the first with Chinese turbo upgrades for the n54. However as Chinese turbos were in their infancy, there were huge quality assurance issues. These issues aren't around as much anymore, but do happen. It's a risk many people take these days to save a couple bucks as tooling gets better and better. if you really want to dig, there's a lot of debates + data on this from rb turbos/franken turbo/hexon turbos from spool street in the n54 section. you can also look at reviews on audizine, vwvortex to name a few. This same strategy of supplying "turbo upgrades" without data testing themselves has been a thing for awhile. before the n55 turbos it was the n20 motor which was hit with the razzle dazzle and underperformed. heck a 10+ year old "stage 1 turbo upgrade" outflowed their turbo upgrade + is a better buy for the price.

As frankenturbo is based in Portland, OR, public record show the company filed for bankruptcy a handful of times if you really want to dig into those public records.

This isn't new info, but for people who didn't know, the F30 n55 turbos are based on the Borg Warner efr series. Really and truly the stock turbo are a efr 6255 turbo. the smallest efr is a 6258 and on paper flows 43-44 lb/min. thus 430-450whp should be possible on e85 with the stock turbo and all supporting parts. Dyno have shown just under this as the bmw turbo is smaller.

Most of these turbo upgrades used to be genuine Borg Warner turbine wheels and slowly overtime swapped over to the Chinese turbine wheels due to supply chain issues from Borg. Thus your "pure stage 2" is between a efr 6758 and 7163 turbo. thus on paper should make 530-570whp on e85. dyno results have shown these numbers.

The newest "pure 750" is a efr 7163 spec'd turbine wheel with updated larger ar housing to allow for max flow + boost while not becoming a heat pump. On paper a efr 7163 is a 60 lb/min turbo thus 600-640whp should be possible in theory on e85. dyno results have shown these numbers.

Would you trust a company that hits you with the razzle dazzle without any actual data other than being good with words + was good previously with the China game cover-up? Now they are being called out for their hypocrisy. Make a great quality product and show data or be pushed out of the game.

take a gander at the YouTube video

edit - fixed to say 6255 not 5255

[5w20]

I don’t know why Audi and other data is brought up.

That is like saying, ALL BMW engines suffer from the same issues just simply because it’s an engine in a BMW.

Let’s focus on facts and not on speculations or feelings. The quickest pure turbo n55 is Sixto on the n55 Facebook group. His F30 runs a 6.8 in the 1/8 mile, and the quickest n55+ car is a F10 and it runs the same 6.8 in the 1/8 mile with an additional ~300-400lbs of weight. I can you why, but even if I did more than half won’t understand it.

[lens]

Someone posted a 91 oct Pure750 dyno on the BMW N55 group.

Their M2 N55 made 470whp/500wtq on straight 91 only with Pure750.

They said their E85 run is up next.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by lens

Someone posted a 91 oct Pure750 dyno on the BMW N55 group.

Their M2 N55 made 470whp/500wtq on straight 91 only with Pure750.

They said their E85 run is up next.

For those of us who don't have FB, do you mind screen grabbing or posting it here?

[lens]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

For those of us who don't have FB, do you mind screen grabbing or posting it here?

Np

[5w20]

Did they ever find the dyno sheet?

[Go Fast]

Originally Posted by lens

I would get the Pure 750.

It's been proven, and it works with BM3 stg 2H OTS maps, I ran PS2 on them and made 420AWHP/438AWTQ on 93 OTS, and 400AWHP/435AWTQ on 91 OTS.

Ran this setup for about 80k miles on the turbo without issue.

Stock hpfp?

[wheela]

Originally Posted by sqwinny

This isn't new info, but for people who didn't know, the F30 n55 turbos are based on the Borg Warner efr series. Really and truly the stock turbo are a efr 5255 turbo. the smallest efr is a 6258 and on paper flows 43-44 lb/min. thus 430-450whp should be possible on e85 with the stock turbo and all supporting parts. Dyno have shown just under this as the bmw turbo is smaller.

Most of these turbo upgrades used to be genuine Borg Warner turbine wheels and slowly overtime swapped over to the Chinese turbine wheels due to supply chain issues from Borg. Thus your "pure stage 2" is between a efr 6758 and 7163 turbo. thus on paper should make 530-570whp on e85. dyno results have shown these numbers.

The newest "pure 750" is a efr 7163 spec'd turbine wheel with updated larger ar housing to allow for max flow + boost while not becoming a heat pump. On paper a efr 7163 is a 60 lb/min turbo thus 600-640whp should be possible in theory on e85. dyno results have shown these numbers.

take a gander at the YouTube video

The bmw n55 turbos are borg warner, but when you say they're based on the EFR series, in what regard are they based on EFR? I've read that the PWG n55 turbo is a borg warner B03, but have not ever found any compressor maps for it. What sets EFR apart are the ceramic ball bearing CHRA and the titanium aluminde turbine wheels. Have you found an information source saying the n55 turbo has a titanium aluminde turbine wheel? I know the CHRA is journal bearing. Are you just using the EFR naming convention regarding wheel sizes to compare to the stock n55 turbo and the various Pure upgrades?

[johnung]

Originally Posted by Go Fast

Stock hpfp?

I had a conversation with Dorch about fueling upgrades for the Pure750. It’s completely different depending on whether you intend to use 93 Octane or full E85.

The N55 engine itself is octane limited (as opposed to turbo limited) to roughly 500whp when using 93 Octane. There are only so many molecules that can be crammed into those cylinders, so you can reach a point where it doesn’t matter how big the turbo is. The much smaller Pure500 can do 460whp using 93 Octane so its logical to assume that both the Pure600 and the Pure750 will reach the octane limited N55 maximum of roughly 500whp using 93 octane.

The larger Pure750 will obviously perform higher than the Pure600 using ethanol mixes. Pure has the P750 maximum rated at +50whp more than the P600.

To get that 500whp using 93 Octane does require a HPFP upgrade. A Dorch Stage 1.5 may suffice, but I’d recommend a Dorch 2.5 to have available upside, especially to test low ethanol mixes. The stock LPFP and stock fuel injectors should be fine.

Two cars with a Pure750 using full E85 have dyno’d at 650whp and 670whp. (Please keep in mind that >600whp is supposed to risk breaking engine and drivetrain components.) The fueling requirements for Pure750 using full E85 are hefty:

Dorch Stage2.5 + 38% Dorch Lift Kit

Bosch M5 S63 Injectors (sold by Dorch for customer convenience) Using ethanol mixes the stock injectors max flow at roughly 520whp.

Precision Raceworks Dual Pump LPFP upgrade with primary Walbro 535 and secondary Walbro 525 hanging off the bucket. Have PR custom straight through wire both pumps with 6 feet of wire slack and no Hobbs Switch.

ET3 Design Stage4 EKP Upgrade. Wire both pumps to Stage4 EKP so they are directly controlled by the DME. This configuration reduces complexity and eliminates the BMW problems of overheating, scorching and melting at the EKP/LPFP BMW wiring connectors.

The above fueling configuration is good for 750+whp using full E85. Assuming the Dorch Stage 2.5 will be purchased to use 93 octane, the Dorch Lift Kit and other fueling components to use full E85 would cost about $3,000 for parts plus labor.

Hope this helps!

[wheela]

Originally Posted by johnung

I had a conversation with Dorch about fueling upgrades for the Pure750. It’s completely different depending on whether you intend to use 93 Octane or full E85.

The N55 engine itself is octane limited (as opposed to turbo limited) to roughly 500whp when using 93 Octane. There are only so many molecules that can be crammed into those cylinders, so you can reach a point where it doesn’t matter how big the turbo is. The much smaller Pure500 can do 460whp using 93 Octane so its logical to assume that both the Pure600 and the Pure750 will reach the octane limited N55 maximum of roughly 500whp using 93 octane.

The larger Pure750 will obviously perform higher than the Pure600 using ethanol mixes. Pure has the P750 maximum rated at +50whp more than the P600.

To get that 500whp using 93 Octane does require a HPFP upgrade. A Dorch Stage 1.5 may suffice, but I’d recommend a Dorch 2.5 to have available upside, especially to test low ethanol mixes. The stock LPFP and stock fuel injectors should be fine.

Two cars with a Pure750 using full E85 have dyno’d at 650whp and 670whp. (Please keep in mind that >600whp is supposed to risk breaking engine and drivetrain components.) The fueling requirements for Pure750 using full E85 are hefty:

Dorch Stage2.5 + 38% Dorch Lift Kit

Bosch M5 S63 Injectors (sold by Dorch for customer convenience) Using ethanol mixes the stock injectors max flow at roughly 520whp.

Precision Raceworks Dual Pump LPFP upgrade with primary Walbro 535 and secondary Walbro 525 hanging off the bucket. Have PR custom straight through wire both pumps with 6 feet of wire slack and no Hobbs Switch.

ET3 Design Stage4 EKP Upgrade. Wire both pumps to Stage4 EKP so they are directly controlled by the DME. This configuration reduces complexity and eliminates the BMW problems of overheating, scorching and melting at the EKP/LPFP BMW wiring connectors.

The above fueling configuration is good for 750+whp using full E85. Assuming the Dorch Stage 2.5 will be purchased to use 93 octane, the Dorch Lift Kit and other fueling components to use full E85 would cost about $3,000 for parts plus labor.

Hope this helps!

A lot of good info here! Not sure I agree with an n55 hard octane limit of 500whp regardless of turbo size though. Bigger turbos help extend the octane limit because you can make the same boost with less back pressure for the exhaust to fight against coming out of the exhaust valves (so less residual exhaust heat in the cylinder and less pressure for the piston to push up against on the exhaust stroke). If you're making enough boost for 500whp on 93 with a pure750, your preturbine back pressure is probably still somewhat higher than your boost pressure. From that point you could still go up to a bigger turbo, and run that same amount of boost with less back pressure and free up some torque and push the octane limit a little further. I do agree though, that the pure750 may be approaching diminishing returns territory. You could keep going bigger and bigger, but at some point it's no longer practical as the power band would become too too small to be useful. There's probably a point where the turbo gets so big you start losing ability to make more boost because the engine can't pump enough exhaust to spool the turbo.

[LA1Z24]

Originally Posted by johnung

Two cars with a Pure750 using full E85 have dyno’d at 650whp and 670whp. (Please keep in mind that >600whp is supposed to risk breaking engine and drivetrain components.) The fueling requirements for Pure750 using full E85 are hefty:

Dorch Stage2.5 + 38% Dorch Lift Kit

This hardware limitation also applied to the M2 N55 with forged internals or just the F30/F32 N55?

[johnung]

Originally Posted by wheela

A lot of good info here! Not sure I agree with an n55 hard octane limit of 500whp regardless of turbo size though. Bigger turbos help extend the octane limit because you can make the same boost with less back pressure for the exhaust to fight against coming out of the exhaust valves (so less residual exhaust heat in the cylinder and less pressure for the piston to push up against on the exhaust stroke). If you're making enough boost for 500whp on 93 with a pure750, your preturbine back pressure is probably still somewhat higher than your boost pressure. From that point you could still go up to a bigger turbo, and run that same amount of boost with less back pressure and free up some torque and push the octane limit a little further. I do agree though, that the pure750 may be approaching diminishing returns territory. You could keep going bigger and bigger, but at some point it's no longer practical as the power band would become too too small to be useful. There's probably a point where the turbo gets so big you start losing ability to make more boost because the engine can't pump enough exhaust to spool the turbo.

I heard the N55 engine octane limitation from Dorch and a couple others who I really respect. I’m not really concerned about the theoretical arguments at the moment because we will have Dynos soon enough for both Pure600 and Pure750. I have heard a number of people say they have gotten 500whp using 93 with their Pure750 but haven’t seen a P750/93 dyno yet. So we will see!

[johnung]

Originally Posted by LA1Z24

This hardware limitation also applied to the M2 N55 with forged internals or just the F30/F32 N55?

My understanding is that forged internals or not, makes no difference. It’s a cylinder volume thing. I was told that the limit line could be moved by changing that volume by boring out the cylinders and changing the compression ratio, obviously changing the physical parameters of the octane limitation. Seems like a huge expense for not so much whp return. If I didn’t have E85 available, might be worth buying some E98 to add sometimes.

[wheela]

Originally Posted by johnung

I heard the N55 engine octane limitation from Dorch and a couple others who I really respect. I’m not really concerned about the theoretical arguments at the moment because we will have Dynos soon enough for both Pure600 and Pure750. I have heard a number of people say they have gotten 500whp using 93 with their Pure750 but haven’t seen a P750/93 dyno yet. So we will see!

Fair enough I'm definately excited to see more options coming out for n55!

[CalvinNismo]

Originally Posted by johnung

I heard the N55 engine octane limitation from Dorch and a couple others who I really respect. I’m not really concerned about the theoretical arguments at the moment because we will have Dynos soon enough for both Pure600 and Pure750. I have heard a number of people say they have gotten 500whp using 93 with their Pure750 but haven’t seen a P750/93 dyno yet. So we will see!

Why then can the S55 (a strikingly similar engine to the N55) make 600+whp on pump fuel? Surely it must be exhaust back pressure and/or turbo capacity?

See Pure’s own website:
https://www.pureturbos.com/product/b...-stage-2-plus/

[sqwinny]

Originally Posted by wheela

The bmw n55 turbos are borg warner, but when you say they're based on the EFR series, in what regard are they based on EFR? I've read that the PWG n55 turbo is a borg warner B03, but have not ever found any compressor maps for it. What sets EFR apart are the ceramic ball bearing CHRA and the titanium aluminde turbine wheels. Have you found an information source saying the n55 turbo has a titanium aluminde turbine wheel? I know the CHRA is journal bearing. Are you just using the EFR naming convention regarding wheel sizes to compare to the stock n55 turbo and the various Pure upgrades?

They are based off the efr turbos but at this time have yet to be shown to be the Gamma-Ti compressor wheels the official efr turbos are. I believe they are standard metal aluminum wheels but I have yet to see any actual data showing the metal type for the turbine and compressor wheel.

The b03 Borg Warner turbos on the f30 335i are .60 ar size for ar ratio + 6255 size thus would be on par minus maybe 1-4 lb/min flow but this is an estimation.

data for your comparison:

efr 6258 compressor map and specs:
https://cdn.borgwarner.com/docs/defa...sn=595bb03c_17

[sqwinny]

Originally Posted by johnung

My understanding is that forged internals or not, makes no difference. It’s a cylinder volume thing. I was told that the limit line could be moved by changing that volume by boring out the cylinders and changing the compression ratio, obviously changing the physical parameters of the octane limitation. Seems like a huge expense for not so much whp return. If I didn’t have E85 available, might be worth buying some E98 to add sometimes.

Agreed.

Side note for those reading for information, with only pump 93 octane you are octane limited. most tuners even in the 4 cylinder world will refuse to tune for more than 21-22 psi on pump 93 (98 Ron) due to pump fuels being very variable with its quality and you can only force so much combustion into each cylinder to generate power with safe limits.

Ideally this is why most folks run methanol injection to use as a supplementary fuel + raise octane levels which allows for more boost + load = more power generated.