[btbossman]

Originally Posted by Meeni

And you should not, even with AWD. False sense of security leads to catastrophic outcome.

The problem with downpour is visibility and lack of braking traction (and possible hydroplaning), all of which has nothing to do with AWD or not.

Idk man, I was in some serious rain for a few days when I first got her, pushed it a little and the car did great. Seemed pretty secure, not sure I would go any faster though. Did it once in my old 325 and, DID hydroplane...luckily no one was on the road and I was able to control it. As for terrain I go hunting and shooting all the time, most of the places are in the middle of no where. When weather is not so forgiving, it can get quite slippery out there. So far my 335 has gone everywhere my x5 went, places where some of my friends have had (albeit minor)issues with their FWDs.

[ToyotaBMW]

OP Look at the video of 435 vs S5 in the forums. You will see the benefits of AWD. People can say all they want about RWD being as good as AWD but the facts are that modern day mass produced cars with 300hp+ are bumping the lips of grip. Watch the video and you will see that the AWD helps the Audi beat the bimmer around the track and on the straight line speed easily.
This is not to say the Audi is better before the fanboys jump on this, it is to demonstrate AWD be it Xdrive or Quattro provides better grip thus better acceleration and corning.

[DVC]

Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW

This is not to say the Audi is better before the fanboys jump on this, it is to demonstrate AWD be it Xdrive or Quattro provides better grip thus better acceleration and corning.

Ok, I have now officially given up on this thread...

[ToyotaBMW]

Originally Posted by DVC

Ok, I have now officially given up on this thread...

I'll wait your explanation of why a 4000lb+ AWD car can go around the track faster and also finish the straighline run faster than the 3600lb RWD if you think it isn't from the grip of the AWD. Don't tell me the engine either we all know both engines put out about the same amount of power when you also add that the Audi is heavier.

[trey100]

Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW

I'll wait your explanation of why a 4000lb+ AWD car can go around the track faster and also finish the straighline run faster than the 3600lb RWD if you think it isn't from the grip of the AWD. Don't tell me the engine either we all know both engines put out about the same amount of power when you also add that the Audi is heavier.

I think the S5 is a bit faster in all fairness. Most magazines show stock S4s at 12.9/13.0 second 105ish 1/4 miles stock. The same as the tested PPK version of the 335. The s5 also has the sport diff option which is not available on xdrive.

Overall my opinion is that for the street any subtle differences are in people's head. Maybe a real pro or track driver can sense these differences but really how aggressive can you drive on the street? I've taken my AWD cars (and RWD) around turns at high speeds and in neither case did I feel these differences. Then again my Infiniti is 100 percent RWD until it slips so that may be the difference?

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW

I'll wait your explanation of why a 4000lb+ AWD car can go around the track faster and also finish the straighline run faster than the 3600lb RWD if you think it isn't from the grip of the AWD. Don't tell me the engine either we all know both engines put out about the same amount of power when you also add that the Audi is heavier.

The S5 in most tests comes equipped with the badass diff which there is no real equivalent to in the F30. The S5 also makes a good bit more power to the wheels than the N55 out of the box, just look at track speeds. So the S4/S5 scenario just muddies up the discussion of F30 RWD vs F30 Xdrive.

[drob23]

While we're at it, we should probably bring the GT-R into the fray. There is nothing better on bimmerpost than a thread containing xdrive vs rwd vs S4 vs GT-R. Bring in any of {MT vs AT, IS350, 328 vs 335} and you truly have the greatest thread ever...should be stickied!

[ToyotaBMW]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

The S5 in most tests comes equipped with the badass diff which there is no real equivalent to in the F30. The S5 also makes a good bit more power to the wheels than the N55 out of the box, just look at track speeds. So the S4/S5 scenario just muddies up the discussion of F30 RWD vs F30 Xdrive.

You are correct on the sport diff but the sport diff only works on a AWD car I believe as it makes the outside wheels turn faster. This wouldn't work on a RWD car correct me if I am wrong so that is another bonus for AWD.

Yes the S5 makes more power to the wheels but it is significantly heavier also. What I am trying to say is RWD is the best if you can put fat enough tires to allow the car to put the power to the ground but once you get 300hp+ you won't be able to fit fat enough tires on mass produced cars. We aren't talking Supercars here, we aren't even talking sport cars. These sedans are reaching the limits of grip with it being a Sedan and sedan tire sizes.

To justify my statement look at the video and the 435i is slipping all over the place and look at the C63 with the great engine but once you put it on the track it can't put all the power down in the corners.
Also look at M division statement about AWD in future M5 and I can put money down that it will be on the M5 and most likely on the M3 even they say not on the M3. They also said you don't need a diff on the 3er and then the put it as an option on the F30. LOL

Even Ferrari is messing around with AWD. The Ferrari AWD is very interesting as it becomes RWD at I believe 75mph. This is the best of all worlds. My friend who has the FF, 458, 599 and the California said that his FF can do some tracks faster than his 458 because it gives him more confidence with the AWD, of course he said he is only an intermediate driver and a very experienced driver will be able to drive the 458 faster but he said you aren't going to be able to do this unless you are also willing to push the 458 as hard as you can and he said that it was an expensive car to do that in.

Why don't you guys meet up with some F30 335xi guys and have a few drag races and then go to a track session to see what happens. I think it will be interesting.

[F32]

[F32]

Originally Posted by DVC

Ok, I have now officially given up on this thread...

I was about to until I realized that we're getting trolled. Now it's just funny.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW

You are correct on the sport diff but the sport diff only works on a AWD car I believe as it makes the outside wheels turn faster. This wouldn't work on a RWD car correct me if I am wrong so that is another bonus for AWD.

Yes the S5 makes more power to the wheels but it is significantly heavier also. What I am trying to say is RWD is the best if you can put fat enough tires to allow the car to put the power to the ground but once you get 300hp+ you won't be able to fit fat enough tires on mass produced cars. We aren't talking Supercars here, we aren't even talking sport cars. These sedans are reaching the limits of grip with it being a Sedan and sedan tire sizes.

To justify my statement look at the video and the 435i is slipping all over the place and look at the C63 with the great engine but once you put it on the track it can't put all the power down in the corners.
Also look at M division statement about AWD in future M5 and I can put money down that it will be on the M5 and most likely on the M3 even they say not on the M3. They also said you don't need a diff on the 3er and then the put it as an option on the F30. LOL

I know about the Sport diff on the Audi, I am highlighting in contrast the Xdrive has no such thing, and the RWD cars have an open diff-although now an LSD will be offered as an MP product.

[drob23]

Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW

You are correct on the sport diff but the sport diff only works on a AWD car I believe as it makes the outside wheels turn faster. This wouldn't work on a RWD car correct me if I am wrong so that is another bonus for AWD.

Dude...the M5 has a rear sports diff and the M3 will also get it. The F30 tested there has no LSD. Can you please stop? You're making Audi owners look like complete simple-jacks here...

[DVC]

Originally Posted by drob23

Can you please stop? You're making Audi owners look like complete simple-jacks here...

LOL

[ToyotaBMW]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

I know about the Sport diff on the Audi, I am highlighting in contrast the Xdrive has no such thing, and the RWD cars have an open diff-although now an LSD will be offered as an MP product.

Actually doesn't the M6 Xdrive have a similiar Sport diff with Torque Vectoring combined with AWD to have the same results?

[ToyotaBMW]

Originally Posted by drob23

Dude...the M5 has a rear sports diff and the M3 will also get it. The F30 tested there has no LSD. Can you please stop? You're making Audi owners look like complete simple-jacks here...

Ok maybe I didn't make it clear enough. What I was saying is that the outcome of the sport diffs aren't going to be the same without AWD be it Xdrive or Quattro. You can put the optional LSD on the F30 and it still won't have enough grip. Also the M sport diff is also not enough as M division is considering AWD on future generation M5's. If the diffs worked as well on a RWD car as a AWD car than I don't think BMW would consider AWD car. The sport diffs will help definitely on RWD cars but AWD with Torque vectoring or AWD like the Ferrari or GT-R will be the future as HP's go up and we are still talking mass produced sedans here.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW

Actually doesn't the M6 Xdrive have a similiar Sport diff with Torque Vectoring combined with AWD to have the same results?

No such thing as an Xdrive M6. Only way to get an M car with Xdrive in the US is the X5/6M.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW

Ok maybe I didn't make it clear enough. What I was saying is that the outcome of the sport diffs aren't going to be the same without AWD be it Xdrive or Quattro. You can put the optional LSD on the F30 and it still won't have enough grip. Also the M sport diff is also not enough as M division is considering AWD on future generation M5's. If the diffs worked as well on a RWD car as a AWD car than I don't think BMW would consider AWD car. The sport diffs will help definitely on RWD cars but AWD with Torque vectoring or AWD like the Ferrari or GT-R will be the future as HP's go up and we are still talking mass produced sedans here.

OK, so you are talking about the F30 with LSD not being enough, yet no magazine has tested one. GREAT.

You are talking about the M5 having AWD, but we are talking about approaching 550+whp. This is a whole other ball game. There is a big difference between 280whp and 550+. Everyone has said, that at higher power levels, RWD DOES benefit from AWD. This is the route AMG has taken this year with the E63.

[ToyotaBMW]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

No such thing as an Xdrive M6. Only way to get an M car with Xdrive in the US is the X5/6M.

Yes I was talking about the X6 /X6 with the Torque Vectoring.

[hyperboost]

Xdrive still drives/feels weird sometimes. With my 535xi in sport mode, the car is not quite smooth on gas from a rolling start. And no it's not the transmission.
I really wish local dealers would have some nice RWD non M models.

[drob23]

Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW

Ok maybe I didn't make it clear enough. What I was saying is that the outcome of the sport diffs aren't going to be the same without AWD be it Xdrive or Quattro. You can put the optional LSD on the F30 and it still won't have enough grip. Also the M sport diff is also not enough as M division is considering AWD on future generation M5's. If the diffs worked as well on a RWD car as a AWD car than I don't think BMW would consider AWD car. The sport diffs will help definitely on RWD cars but AWD with Torque vectoring or AWD like the Ferrari or GT-R will be the future as HP's go up and we are still talking mass produced sedans here.

Replied to your PM, but I'll repeat here for clarity. Also, the ///M division would only consider AWD to "keep up with the Jones'" in my opinion. AMG is doing it along with Audi obviously...it also helps to get that "under 3 second 0-60" that seems to get everyone hard about the GT-R. But the M brass know what's up...it's just a question of whether their marketing guys will win the debate. I suppose similar thing with NA vs FI engines, though CAFE makes the argument one sided. To me this debate sort of mirrors the MT vs DCT one...fun to drive vs lap times.

PM Response -
But you're confusing 2 things here. The torque vectoring on the new Audi's is due to the active rear differential. This system exists on the M5, F8x M3, 997 911 carrera S (everything above) and C7 corvette to name a few. The idea is you have *active* torque appropriation between right/left side of the car, irregardless of whether it's AWD, FWD or RWD. The GT-R has sports diff's in the front and rear if I'm correct.

So bringing the active rear diff into the debate of AWD vs RWD is just confusing and not a distinguishing feature. What is clear however, is that AWD cars understeer a lot more because the friction circle on the front wheels is already loaded due to drive torque going there. So the sports diff has an immediate return on investment because it naturally counteracts this problem.

Now, what effect the system has on RWD is something I don't know, I've never driven one of these cars. But I'm sure it makes them quite agile and would obviously help the F30. The F30 sliding around has more to do with the lack of a limited slip differential...which is a pretty big performance block at the track (where you are opening throttle under high lateral acceleration).

What is clear to me in all this, is that a purpose built AWD car, with sophisticated electronic control systems and active torque appropriation is absolutely the highest performance driveline. This does not include Quattro with active rear diff...the R18 e-tron quattro is a much more sophisticated car...as is the 918 spider...leFerrari etc.

Bringing these arguments into a production AWD vs RWD debate is fruitless.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

Wrong, the article says the RWD is 0.4 seconds ahead by 120mph. If you are going to read magazines, at least read them properly

I needed some time out, everyone needs one from this thread. No the rwd as C&D said, nudges ahead at 120mph. See F32's response below, he partially explains what is going on here

Originally Posted by F32

The gaping hole in his "scientific magazine research" is he's drawing conclusions by overlapping time-to-distance and time-to-speed information...two very different things.

Yep, many of us were muddling things up, myself included

Originally Posted by NISFAN

You are getting yourself all muddled up, you cannot compare two drag times done at different events and be satisfied that they are directly comparable.

Lets look at this....

The information you rely on states that a 335iX gets to 60mph 0.2 seconds faster than a 335iS. Sounds about right to me given AWD traction in the first 15-20mph range.

....but then the heavier, more power loss through the drive train 335iX maintains it's 0.2 second lead all the way through the 1/4. A 335i typically traps at around 103-105mph. So the suggestion is that the heavier 335iX has no disadvantage from 60-105mph. Clearly the RWD is not powerful enough to spin the wheels at 60+mph so what the heck is happening here?

Then miraculously, the 335iS goes from say 104mph (typical 1/4mile trap speed) to 120mph in a whole 0.6 seconds faster than the xdrive, even though it couldn't gain any time the 20mph before this. (0.2 seconds behind at the 1/4 then 0.4 seconds ahead at 120mph). What was it wheel spinning at 80mph?

This was the gaping hole, it did not make sense that the 0.2s gap just evaporates so quickly to a 0.4s lead for the rwd, until I realized F32 was right.

C&D gave us three measurements, two were time to speed and one was time to distance. We all know the rwd gains speed faster than the awd given less weight.

1st measurement, time to speed:
0-60, xdrive wins this one, both in time to speed and time to distance. So at around 150 feet (approximate distance to 60), the awd will cross that line first and the rwd will cross second. We do not know how much faster the awd will cross that line

2nd measurement, time to distance:
1/4 mile, xdrive crosses the 1/4 0.2 seconds ahead. Its a coincidence that the 0.2s lead observed at the 1/4 is the same as the 0.2s for 0-60. The two are not related. However, the rwd has certainly been gaining more speed than the awd.
The extra speed gained is not yet enough to take the lead.

3rd measurement, time to speed:
Now this is where the rwd extra speed is now showing in terms of which one is first if a time to distance measurement were taken. This is why C&D said it squeaks ahead. The rwd takes 0.4s less to get to 120mph (time to speed), which makes sense considering its been gaining speed faster than the awd, but before this point, the extra speed was not enough to lead in a time to distance test.

[300hp]

GTR

I am not sure why this car is still important other than for 0-60 times. Its become irrelevant in the past year. Look at SLS Black Series and the new Corvette which are just greatly well executed rwd platforms that will murder any GTR on a track. BMW has not yet put forward its best argument for the track, the M4 and M3. GM has not yet brought in the s/charged version of the new Vette. Lets see how these play out.